[TGS]

Nothing special here, I've just been poop sockin' it like a madman on my grad school work and need to take an early AM break and decompress, so I thought I'd share some random thoughts from today.

I met up with my shooting buddy from P-F.com today and put some rounds downrange. Once again, it was cold as ****, snowing and windy at the range in Florham Park, NJ. I mainly used my P2000, and he mainly used his P30, but he brought along his HK45 and I got to try it out. I was uber excited, to say the least.

The stock trigger on the fullsize HK45 is comparable to my Gray Guns worked P2000, except for pull weight and smoothness of the DA. :52:

I think the SIG 220 is the best shooting .45 I've ever had the pleasure of shooting. I like everything about it better except for the mag release, slide release and decocker.....the grip, the trigger, the recoil characteristics and sight tracking, I greatly prefer on the 220.

To give a rough estimate of how I'm perceiving recoil control, from worst to best of guns I've shot on std pressure 45:
4" AL framed 1911
HK45
5" Steel framed 1911 (with 230gr +p this feels almost exactly like the HK45 on std pressure)
SIG 220 Carry

I also shot the XD45 years ago, but can't remember much.

With that being said, if I ever needed to rely on a 45 it would be the HK. Given SIG's aggregate build qualities as of late, and the fact the 220 has never really been a stellar performer in high-round counts to begin with, I'd force myself to make do with the HK45. However, I can DEFINITELY see how Todd Green developed a case of tendonitis from shooting 50,000+ rounds in one year from his!

 

[williamthewolf]

Thanks for the thoughts.. I too do not like the controls on the Sig P-series DA/SA pistols.. Been playing with the thought of getting an X-5 in 9mm though. ... Also want the HK45 but I'm in CA and it's a pain to get one here.

 

[av8or]

I had a similar experience with the 45C in that I would very much "trust" it or rely on it if necessary. The 45C was my 2nd 45 cal pistol and the first one (included in your list) was not very reliable for me. I have not shot a p220 but I do think it would be another solid performer. I have become accustomed to the HK mag release and it is better than the little button. Is there anything specific that you do not like about the sig controls?

Sounds like you had a good range day despite the cold.

 

[nyeti]

I just got a HK45 full size yesterday. I have four of the 45C's. I wanted to build a dedicated light gun and I got a good deal on a used HK45. I immediately went to the range from the gun shop.

Background-I laugh about the Todd Green round count (and I warned Todd before he started). I was shooting 50,000 rounds of 45 ACP a year through Sig P-220's and then the USP.45 for over ten years and maintained very high round counts for another ten years. I am paying daily with the severe arthritis and pain in my hands that have made 9mm Glocks my "shooting" guns. Even so, because I spent so much time on the USP (we were one of the first agencies to issue the USP .45's for our SWAT team), that I am more used to the Hk controls than anything else. I always loved the USP 45 Compact (fit my hand btter than the USP45F) and the HK45C's were a instant favorite for me. I just didn't have a ton of use for the full size. I carried the 45C's on high end protective details and as a daily carry gun very extensively. This was especially true in California, where everybody in L.A. County gets hyper over hi-cap mags. Since moving to Texas, I have carried mostly a Glock 9mm.

The range session was good. Typically, I need to work on the DA/SA transition. Again, I am actually very used to it, but the hand strength and pain are more of the issue than the feel. The HK45 is a total tack driver. I also loved the Sig P-220 and won a gunfight with one, but Sig's QC has been a major issue. If its not an old W.German gun, I am just not interested. I have to say, that I am so far impressed with the HK45. I was a little worried about this being my first non-German gun, but so far, I am not seeing any issues.

I will be doing the following to the HK45-
1-threaded barrel (mainly to keep crap off the X300).
2-Cold Bore Customs for a new stippling job and to knock down the finger grooves and remove the trigger trough
3-10-8 sights when they are available
4-I might go with a Bowie over travel stop. I am hoping that HK will do a Match trigger like they did for the USP Experts and Tacticals.

Overall, I am liking the gun.................A LOT.

 

[TGS]

Is there anything specific that you do not like about the sig controls?

The slide release. I owned a SIG P239 and have put some rounds through the 220, 226, 228 and 229, and never liked the slide release. Its position means my strong hand thumb is on top of it, which I don't like because I could be depressing it without intending to. At the same time, I could never leverage enough pressure on it to make it useful when I wanted to, so I always resorted to racking the slide instead of using the slide stop with SIG's as I do when shooting Glocks.

The SIG mag release button is fine, but I just prefer the HK releases.

Not big issues, just preferential stuff. Even still, if the SIG had solid QC going right now, I'd take the 220 over the HK's.

Background-I laugh about the Todd Green round count (and I warned Todd before he started). I was shooting 50,000 rounds of 45 ACP a year through Sig P-220's and then the USP.45 for over ten years and maintained very high round counts for another ten years. I am paying daily with the severe arthritis and pain in my hands that have made 9mm Glocks my "shooting" guns. Even so, because I spent so much time on the USP (we were one of the first agencies to issue the USP .45's for our SWAT team), that I am more used to the Hk controls than anything else. I always loved the USP 45 Compact (fit my hand btter than the USP45F) and the HK45C's were a instant favorite for me. I just didn't have a ton of use for the full size. I carried the 45C's on high end protective details and as a daily carry gun very extensively. This was especially true in California, where everybody in L.A. County gets hyper over hi-cap mags. Since moving to Texas, I have carried mostly a Glock 9mm.

The range session was good. Typically, I need to work on the DA/SA transition. Again, I am actually very used to it, but the hand strength and pain are more of the issue than the feel. The HK45 is a total tack driver. I also loved the Sig P-220 and won a gunfight with one, but Sig's QC has been a major issue. If its not an old W.German gun, I am just not interested. I have to say, that I am so far impressed with the HK45. I was a little worried about this being my first non-German gun, but so far, I am not seeing any issues.

I will be doing the following to the HK45-
1-threaded barrel (mainly to keep crap off the X300).
2-Cold Bore Customs for a new stippling job and to knock down the finger grooves and remove the trigger trough
3-10-8 sights when they are available
4-I might go with a Bowie over travel stop. I am hoping that HK will do a Match trigger like they did for the USP Experts and Tacticals.

Overall, I am liking the gun.................A LOT.

Nyeti,

That's good to hear, man. I would much prefer shooting high round counts out of the 220, and I would think the USP would also feel softer as well given the RSA.....imagine how much worse your artritis would be today if you were shooting the HK45 for your career instead of the USP or 220!

I will say that one reason I wasn't handling the recoil very well is because I instinctively was using my mentally ingrained grip from my P2000, and with the depth of grip from the frontstrap to backstrap, I didn't have a great purchase. If I were the pick up the HK45, it'd require a lot of tweaking in that regard.....I haven't experienced such a pronounced difference with the other 45's I've shot.

My buddies from the teams will routinely shoot well over 30,000 rounds out of their .45 MEUSOC 1911's just for a workup. Shooting that amount for work can really take the fun out of shooting....they would wake up every morning and their hands would be seized up and need a 10 minute massage to get them working. SgtMaj(ret) Eric Haney talks about the same thing in his book Inside Delta Force. F' that. Thankfully, my future career goals will have me shooting 9mm SIG 229's as my issued weapon, and not .45's.

Picking this stuff up from you F.A.G.'s is a fantastic resource so I don't have to learn the hard way. The first reason I ever came upon that made me stop firing at full extension was reading about how Bruce Gray's elbows are completely ****** with arthritis these days from doing such. But now in doing that, even 2 years later, I'm still trying to figure out some things with my grip and applying isometric tension from the sides...sometimes when I get sloppy the pressure from my arms and pecs seems to focus from the heel of my hand only, and it ends up breaking my support hand's grip around 8 rounds from snappier 9mm's like the P2000 or P99. No problem with the softer 9mm's like SIG's. I would have greatly benefited from when SLG on P-F.com did a impromptu clinic on that specifically when he was visiting NoVA.

 

[Darebear]

Awesome. My Glock 26 gets the nod most of the time whenever I carry, so I've given thought trading my HK45c for a full size. That way I can put the bigger and better WML's on. Hope you get your hands on one soon.

 

[nyeti]

TGS-I find the recoil issue to be more different than any harsher. I find that the HK45C gets some muzzle climb, but I don't find it harsh. For me, 1911's just recoil totally different than the polymer guns. Between the HK45 and the USP45, and the SIG P-220 I find it to be about even....I think the lower slide height on the HK45 series ends up with a recoil impulse that is more straight to the rear. They are all a little different. If we are talking the all stainless steel framed SIG's, then yes, they are puss to shoot. One thing I have found is that the HK45's (both full and compact) handle hot +P .45 loads better than just about anything else.

Reliability wise, as good as the old Sigs were, the HK's proved to be very reliable over the long term and very problem free.

As far as injuries from shooting. I think technique has a lot to do with it. I shoot with a more Weaver based shooting platform and use about a 60% push and 40% pull from the strong to weak hand (there is a reason for this based on my experience). I use a lot more hand and wrist to control the gun. I have seen that guys like Hilton Yam, Todd Green, and others who are using Modern ISO and using a lot of side press into the grips are having far more elbow issues. I have zero clue if their is any science to this, I just know that the Modern ISO guys have different issues than I do. On top of all the shooting, I spent 3.5 years on a bicycle and rode a lot off duty, and 4 years in a helicopter working with a lot of thumb and hand controls. My hands are simply trashed at this point, and paying for my career. I suppose that hitting a bunch of idiots in the head was also a factor as well.........

 

[Massan]

I gave up my fullsize 220 for the HK45. I very much prefer Sig's DA/SA over HK's but once LEM comes into the equation it's all HK. Trigger pull and smoothness on my 220 is comparable to my P30L but the reset and break is way better on the Sig especially with a SRT. I didnt find my 220 to be any softer shooting than my HK45 or vice versa but to me the HK45 was more controllable thus it is king in my book. I still love my 220 but it has been regulated to range fun/loaner once I got my HK45.

 

[aharr]

"I also loved the Sig P-220 and won a gunfight with one, but Sig's QC has been a major issue".

Really. What were the specifics if you don't mind sharing more detail about your "gunfight"?

 

[nyeti]

I won't go into a ton of details on the net, but lets just say that an illegal alien fugitive felon with an unregistered hi-capacity firearm in California (couldn't possibly happen due to the strict gun laws.....) wanted to play fast draw in a bar with me. Luckily, mine was already out and I was able to get a single well placed shot into the chest that ended the fight instantly (he went down so fast that I couldn't get a second shot off). That gun was worked by TJ's custom Gunworks, and was an older W.German Sig that was always a great shooter. We saw a huge rash of problems with QC on later US made SIG pistols and transitioned to Glock and HK.

Currently, I have converted my HK45's to light LEM's with safety's and I will be doing two of my HK45C's as well. I have decided that this is the combo I really like at this point for a street trigger system.

 

[gtmtnbiker98]

Luckily, mine was already out and I was able to get a single well placed shot into the chest that ended the fight instantly (he went down so fast that I couldn't get a second shot off).

"DRT!"

 

[aharr]

I won't go into a ton of details on the net, but lets just say that an illegal alien fugitive felon with an unregistered hi-capacity firearm in California (couldn't possibly happen due to the strict gun laws.....) wanted to play fast draw in a bar with me. Luckily, mine was already out and I was able to get a single well placed shot into the chest that ended the fight instantly

Wow! How impressive. Sounds like a scene right out of Gunsmoke. My hat's off to you, Festus.

 

[aharr]

...He's a cop!...

As was Festus?

 

[nyeti]

"DRT!"

Nope.....as is typical cockroach crook luck, the response from the fire department was 57 seconds........yes, 57 seconds from the time he was shot to being MAST suited and transported to one of the finest trauma centers in the world where they saved his life (its one of those places that regularly does heart transplants). Even better was in court where thanks to a nice plea bargain he got a big six months in county jail...........forget all that felon illegal alien with a high capacity pistol and shooting up the bar prior to me getting there stuff...........just plead it away for a "brandishing" conviction. Cases like this illustrate why the system is so broken. At least I didn't get sued.........

 

[DaZe831]

Congrats.