Okay i have been debating whether to go with the ever cool HK51 style conversion to my G3 clone or to go with the G3K conversion. Im a little torn because i dont want to give up to much accuracy or distance with mt 7.62 weapon, after all i still would like to be able to tag something at least 200 yds away. Would there be that much difference in performance from my rifle? Is there a great dividing factor between the 2 bbl lenghts or is it pretty much just a fashion choice with barrels these sizes? all input would be greatly appreciated.
sigma
I am not a big fan of the 51 it is (IMHO) all show and no go.
A 51 is fun at the line at MG shoots because it is very loud and throws a huge flame.
Other than that it is not very practical.
I would rather have the G3K if I am trying to hit anything smaller than a barn.
Not everyone agrees I know and I realize I am overly infatuated with 53s but this is all just my opinion.
A 51 is fun at the line at MG shoots because it is very loud and throws a huge flame.
Other than that it is not very practical.
I would rather have the G3K if I am trying to hit anything smaller than a barn.
Not everyone agrees I know and I realize I am overly infatuated with 53s but this is all just my opinion.
The 51s that I've seen and heard of have an MP5- length barrel- around 8.9".
According to HKPRO's own webpage:
http://hkpro.com/g3.htm
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The G3K has a 12.4" barrel. Probably the K would be the better choice for the distance you mentioned. Personally, I'd rather have either one more than a 53.
According to HKPRO's own webpage:
http://hkpro.com/g3.htm
The G3K has a 12.4" barrel. Probably the K would be the better choice for the distance you mentioned. Personally, I'd rather have either one more than a 53.
The HK-51 or the Vector V-51 is defiantly NOT an all show no go weapon ! As with any mission hardware selection you must first evaluate the intended use of the weapon, the minimum characteristics and specifications needed to accomplish what it is you want to do with it, do you wanna punch holes, kill bad guys, make noise, look cool for your next mall ninja photo shoot ?
If you serious about wanting a QUALITY CQC PDW that you can depend on when the SHTF then the 51 is hard to beat. In a package not much larger or heavier than an MP-5 you get a SOLID very dependable and very maneuverable weapon, firing the 7.62 NATO 147gr round at approx. 2000 fps out of an 8" barrel, that is just slightly less power than the AKM 7.62x39 out of a full length 16" barrel (I still find it ridiculous that some refer to that kind of firepower as a "toy").
Now as to the controllability of the 51 my personal opinion is if you can't control this weapon with standard ammo in it's pistol configuration then maybe you need to find another line of work, might I suggest school crossing guard or if that’s to tuff then maybe the town library needs someone to file and stack periodicals.
Admittedly the 51 has a bark to go along with it's bite but that can be tamed for the timid with the addition of a AAC suppressor (adding only 5" total length) and Hornaday TAP ammo (further reduced flash and bang for the delicate types among you), add to that a vertical fore grip and a collapsible or full stock depending on your preference (keeping in mind uncle sugar and all the NFA hoops attached) and you have one very effective, and versatile up close and personal point and click interface tool.
Combine all the above with a good quality tactical scope, a rail mounted flashlight and green laser set and a good quality holographic reflex sight and you have a weapons SYSTEM capable of meeting your needs from point blank to 200 meters, any farther than that call for artillery, air strikes or a cease fire so you convince the other guy this was all just a really big misunderstanding and would he be so kind as to stop trying to put a bullet in your ass.
I get so annoyed with mall ninjas crying about how this weapon is a "toy" just because they can't handle a weapon with a little fire and kick… might I suggest that AIRSOFT makes a fine line of "weapons" made just for you types.
IMHO of course :2500000:
If you serious about wanting a QUALITY CQC PDW that you can depend on when the SHTF then the 51 is hard to beat. In a package not much larger or heavier than an MP-5 you get a SOLID very dependable and very maneuverable weapon, firing the 7.62 NATO 147gr round at approx. 2000 fps out of an 8" barrel, that is just slightly less power than the AKM 7.62x39 out of a full length 16" barrel (I still find it ridiculous that some refer to that kind of firepower as a "toy").
Now as to the controllability of the 51 my personal opinion is if you can't control this weapon with standard ammo in it's pistol configuration then maybe you need to find another line of work, might I suggest school crossing guard or if that’s to tuff then maybe the town library needs someone to file and stack periodicals.
Admittedly the 51 has a bark to go along with it's bite but that can be tamed for the timid with the addition of a AAC suppressor (adding only 5" total length) and Hornaday TAP ammo (further reduced flash and bang for the delicate types among you), add to that a vertical fore grip and a collapsible or full stock depending on your preference (keeping in mind uncle sugar and all the NFA hoops attached) and you have one very effective, and versatile up close and personal point and click interface tool.
Combine all the above with a good quality tactical scope, a rail mounted flashlight and green laser set and a good quality holographic reflex sight and you have a weapons SYSTEM capable of meeting your needs from point blank to 200 meters, any farther than that call for artillery, air strikes or a cease fire so you convince the other guy this was all just a really big misunderstanding and would he be so kind as to stop trying to put a bullet in your ass.
I get so annoyed with mall ninjas crying about how this weapon is a "toy" just because they can't handle a weapon with a little fire and kick… might I suggest that AIRSOFT makes a fine line of "weapons" made just for you types.
IMHO of course :2500000:
I will preface my response with: I own at least one of each 51K, 51, G3K, and G3. I have shot all on either full auto or semi. I have shot all at targets.
51K - Accurate out to 100 meters. Was shooting 5 inch groups on semi, full auto about 3 meter groups at 100 meters. Barrel 5.5 inches. Twist 1:12
51 - Accurate out to 300 meters. Was shooting about 5 inch groups on semi, full auto about 1 meter at about 100 meters. Barrel 8.5 inches. Twist 1:12
G3K - Accurate out to 400 meters. Was shooting abour 3 inch groups on semi, full auto about 1 meter at about 100 meters. Barrel 12.5 inches. Twist 1:12
G3 - Accurate out to 500 - 600 meters. Was shooting about 1 inch groups one semi, full auto about 1 meter at about 100 meters. Barrel 17.7 inches. Twist 1:12
Muzzle velocity and trajectory are definantly different. Each rifle would have lethality out to 300 meters. The only difference would be how accurately you could hit your target. I was shooting small propane tanks at 400 meters on semi auto with my 51. I know it hit them because the tracer round went right into it and blew it up. I swear I am gonna chrono each of these rifles with Mil-spec ammo.
51K - Accurate out to 100 meters. Was shooting 5 inch groups on semi, full auto about 3 meter groups at 100 meters. Barrel 5.5 inches. Twist 1:12
51 - Accurate out to 300 meters. Was shooting about 5 inch groups on semi, full auto about 1 meter at about 100 meters. Barrel 8.5 inches. Twist 1:12
G3K - Accurate out to 400 meters. Was shooting abour 3 inch groups on semi, full auto about 1 meter at about 100 meters. Barrel 12.5 inches. Twist 1:12
G3 - Accurate out to 500 - 600 meters. Was shooting about 1 inch groups one semi, full auto about 1 meter at about 100 meters. Barrel 17.7 inches. Twist 1:12
Muzzle velocity and trajectory are definantly different. Each rifle would have lethality out to 300 meters. The only difference would be how accurately you could hit your target. I was shooting small propane tanks at 400 meters on semi auto with my 51. I know it hit them because the tracer round went right into it and blew it up. I swear I am gonna chrono each of these rifles with Mil-spec ammo.
I think the HK51 would work pretty well as a CQC weapon, but you're wasting a lot of energy. You have a lot of extra to lose (over a .223) but you're still wasting a lot of it when you see all that flame come out behind the projectile.
If it were me though, I think I'd go for the 12" barrel, if that's what the G3K is. The .308 doesn't need a >10" barrel to achieve critical instability like the .223 but it doesn't hurt having that little extra for the long range stuff. I think it would be better for the long-range stuff you are talking about (over 100 yrds.) and still have some good maneuverability.
I got a V51P just last weekend, and plan on shooting it SA and FA with a Fleming sear. I also have two full size HK91s. I must admit though that a mid-length like the G3K fascinates me.
I guess the real question is... How much longer is the site radius of the G3K over the V51? If it's 2"-3" more, that can translate into some increased accuracy as well.
Anyway, 150 grn. projectile at 2,000 fps is not really a toy. Or at least it isn't a good feeling toy if you're on the receiving end. Apparently, it can bust up concrete real good.
Edit, as a frame of reference, my Tokyo Marui MP5K-PDW is 3 grn. at 300 FPS and it hurts a little. Just ask the neighbor's dog.
If it were me though, I think I'd go for the 12" barrel, if that's what the G3K is. The .308 doesn't need a >10" barrel to achieve critical instability like the .223 but it doesn't hurt having that little extra for the long range stuff. I think it would be better for the long-range stuff you are talking about (over 100 yrds.) and still have some good maneuverability.
I got a V51P just last weekend, and plan on shooting it SA and FA with a Fleming sear. I also have two full size HK91s. I must admit though that a mid-length like the G3K fascinates me.
I guess the real question is... How much longer is the site radius of the G3K over the V51? If it's 2"-3" more, that can translate into some increased accuracy as well.
Anyway, 150 grn. projectile at 2,000 fps is not really a toy. Or at least it isn't a good feeling toy if you're on the receiving end. Apparently, it can bust up concrete real good.
Edit, as a frame of reference, my Tokyo Marui MP5K-PDW is 3 grn. at 300 FPS and it hurts a little. Just ask the neighbor's dog.
Somewhat related, But FAL...
WIth my 11 inch FAL, I am getting right at 2350 fps with LC 86 7.62. with no flash suppressor, it has about a 1-1/2 foot blinding ball of fire, with a vortex it has ZERO flash. Even in dusk/near dark. It has less recoil than a standard FAL, and is about 1.5 inch capable at 100 yds. with optics. ( FAL's seem to do better here when shorterized... my new word for the day...) The next SBR I do will be a G3K on an IA dated '91. 12.5 inches is enough for maybe 2450-2500 FPS with NATO loads. It won't lose as much as you think it would. Less than 11 inches, I have no idea what it will do. As far as size, just about all the 7.62 weapons cut down are still pretty long. The FAL is about the length of a standard AK even at this size. Folded of course it gets smaller. I think it takes about a 5-6 inch barrel to get to MP5 size folded, about 7 for an HK53 size. Approximate of course. But the length required for most 7.62 actions will keep it from being small by any means, and to get there you lose alot of practicality. G3K specs are a very good balance between the two, and you will not suffer ballistally, and colapsed its still a handy package. Plus no gas system nightmares to tweak and fix
WIth my 11 inch FAL, I am getting right at 2350 fps with LC 86 7.62. with no flash suppressor, it has about a 1-1/2 foot blinding ball of fire, with a vortex it has ZERO flash. Even in dusk/near dark. It has less recoil than a standard FAL, and is about 1.5 inch capable at 100 yds. with optics. ( FAL's seem to do better here when shorterized... my new word for the day...) The next SBR I do will be a G3K on an IA dated '91. 12.5 inches is enough for maybe 2450-2500 FPS with NATO loads. It won't lose as much as you think it would. Less than 11 inches, I have no idea what it will do. As far as size, just about all the 7.62 weapons cut down are still pretty long. The FAL is about the length of a standard AK even at this size. Folded of course it gets smaller. I think it takes about a 5-6 inch barrel to get to MP5 size folded, about 7 for an HK53 size. Approximate of course. But the length required for most 7.62 actions will keep it from being small by any means, and to get there you lose alot of practicality. G3K specs are a very good balance between the two, and you will not suffer ballistally, and colapsed its still a handy package. Plus no gas system nightmares to tweak and fix
After over 20 years of service in uncle sams lil social club I tend to look at things a lil bit differently than most of the younger generation and if you can't see the backside of 65 ain't much chance of me bein your son there pops , unless momma got busy alot earlier than she told daddy , (and she wants to talk to you about 18 years of back child support sport) but be that as it may.
Your choice of words might confuse the youngens, as I have said in the past anything that can put a golf ball size hole through a man is no toy I my book it is a lethal weapon and in this case a weapon of war (never did have to much time for toys, to busy on the triggger of a M-60 or M-2 I guess...mispent youth).
Anyways your choice of general varmit control for around the ol home stead is very nice, my current choice for a meet and greet in a hallway is the Saiga-12, now if your lookin for nuthin but pure high speed low drag FUN !!! (you gotta get one of these before the next imperial dynasty oops I mean election).
So to sum things up for me at least the 51 or any of the clones from 6" to 12" is a very effective argument ender in my opinion, in this cal. the selection of bbl length is more a matter of personal and or mission preferance.
The 7.62 NATO (or .308) WILL LOSE some velocity and energy the shorter the bbl but at CQC range out to maybe 100 to 200 meters it's really not going to make much of a differance to your bullet stop, as I said the standard SA 7.62 147gr FMJ cronos out at approx. 2,000 fps that translates into approx. 1,500 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle, just a tad shy of the 7.62 X 39 out of a 16" AKM at half the bbl length.
So say what ya want, shoot what you like and be happy, as for me if I gotta take only one rifle out into the vast wasteland we call civilization i'll take my V-51 everytime.
, unless momma got busy alot earlier than she told daddy , (and she wants to talk to you about 18 years of back child support sport) but be that as it may.Your choice of words might confuse the youngens, as I have said in the past anything that can put a golf ball size hole through a man is no toy I my book it is a lethal weapon and in this case a weapon of war (never did have to much time for toys, to busy on the triggger of a M-60 or M-2 I guess...mispent youth).
Anyways your choice of general varmit control for around the ol home stead is very nice, my current choice for a meet and greet in a hallway is the Saiga-12, now if your lookin for nuthin but pure high speed low drag FUN !!! (you gotta get one of these before the next imperial dynasty oops I mean election).
So to sum things up for me at least the 51 or any of the clones from 6" to 12" is a very effective argument ender in my opinion, in this cal. the selection of bbl length is more a matter of personal and or mission preferance.
The 7.62 NATO (or .308) WILL LOSE some velocity and energy the shorter the bbl but at CQC range out to maybe 100 to 200 meters it's really not going to make much of a differance to your bullet stop, as I said the standard SA 7.62 147gr FMJ cronos out at approx. 2,000 fps that translates into approx. 1,500 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle, just a tad shy of the 7.62 X 39 out of a 16" AKM at half the bbl length.
So say what ya want, shoot what you like and be happy, as for me if I gotta take only one rifle out into the vast wasteland we call civilization i'll take my V-51 everytime.
GMorgan/Shattered - Woooh! I think you both were basically saying the same thing before the pissing contest started. As well as you both agree that a 12ga is the best choice to clear a hallway if someone is stupid enough to come in without knocking! SHOTGUN GOT IT!
HK51 practical and accurate out past a football field and controllable! 100% agree! I also have a 51. I love it and I would gladly carry into harms way.
Bottom line on the G3K and the 51 is going to be personal preference. I personally love my 51, but I can see the appeal of the G3K as well. Especially as a gun for open country like when I was at Ft Rich(Richardson) outside of Anchorage. I would have loved to have a G3k up there. Probably would have taken a couple of elk with it as well.
Both good variances of the G3 platform and it's going to be up to the end user.
You're both pretty smart guy's or you wouldn't both be owning the same kinds of weapons as Moi! And I'll tell you and anyone else that will listen! I'm a freakin Genius!!
Regards,
R.
:39:
HK51 practical and accurate out past a football field and controllable! 100% agree! I also have a 51. I love it and I would gladly carry into harms way.
Bottom line on the G3K and the 51 is going to be personal preference. I personally love my 51, but I can see the appeal of the G3K as well. Especially as a gun for open country like when I was at Ft Rich(Richardson) outside of Anchorage. I would have loved to have a G3k up there. Probably would have taken a couple of elk with it as well.
Both good variances of the G3 platform and it's going to be up to the end user.
You're both pretty smart guy's or you wouldn't both be owning the same kinds of weapons as Moi! And I'll tell you and anyone else that will listen! I'm a freakin Genius!!
Regards,
R.
:39:
i can agree that i had no problems taking out a can of pepper spray/ mace, well past the length of a football field, 1st shot, regular drum sights, and even with the collapsibe stock that i was sure was going to break my teeth on!!! but im going to stick with the g3k, because its real hk made and not an invention of fun loving mericans.
seriously
Thanks guys this thread ended up sounding the same way it did when i got with some of my old squad buddies and asked. you guys are very informative and since you have actual experience with the weapons in question I am listening. Thanks!
Thanks guys this thread ended up sounding the same way it did when i got with some of my old squad buddies and asked. you guys are very informative and since you have actual experience with the weapons in question I am listening. Thanks!
I had written a long opinion, but the HKPro server erased it when I submitted it. This isn't the first time.
So short story, G-3K for me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v429/kingnothing5/DSC02009.jpg
So short story, G-3K for me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v429/kingnothing5/DSC02009.jpg
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