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Discussion Starter #1
So today I fired my uncles brand new P2000 V2 LEM 9mm. My initial shots with the gun were low, as were my uncles. However, I eventually managed to make some decent groupings once I got a hang of the trigger action. Unfortunatly my uncle wasn't so lucky and he continued to shoot it worse then he expected. This is the first expierience with LEM for both of us.

My uncle has always shot 9mm and always with DA/SA triggers. He owns and is accustomed to Beretta, SIG, and Walther handguns, all of which are typical DA/SA. I own a J-frame 642 Centennial so I am somewhat used to a heavy double action pull. This is why I think he had more trouble than I did.

My questions are as follows:

1. How do you guys control your LEM trigger? Do you take-up all the slack until just before the round fires or do you pull in one motion backwards? Any advice or pointers on proper LEM trigger control would be greatly appreciated.

2. If he feels he really can't live with LEM, can the pistol be converted to V3 DA/SA?

3. What brand of laser would be a good choice for this pistol? Lasermax looks intriguing, but they do not make an internal model for the HK's. I understand a laser is not a substitute for proper sight alignment, but as I understand it could be used to identify a jerking motion upon squeezing the trigger.

All in all I am aspousing that he just needs more pratice with it. I shot my J-frame like crap when I got it and I have improved greatly over time.
 

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1. Practice. Initially after firing a shot, I held the trigger back, waited to reset my sight picture, let the trigger creep back till I heard and felt the reset click, and repeated. At first, it was slow. After about 5k rounds I was surpassing my previous accuracy with the SA trigger (due to the fact I probably spent a lot more concentrating on precise trigger control, instead of just slapping it back like I was previously). I believe it was better to start slow and deliberate, and then speed would come with time, which worked well for me.

And from what I understand, and my experience tells me, if you have very good SA trigger control, the switch to LEM isn't all that bad since you shouldn't be letting the SA trigger completely slack between shots. The LEM just has a longer slack, the actual reset is just about the same.

2. Yes, very easily.

3. No idea, I don't use lasers.
 

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1. Always one smooth pull from the moment you touch the trigger till you reach the end of the travel. The gun will fire some time during that travel. If you stage it, the odds of pulling the shots low and left (right handers) goes up significantly.

2. Yes.

3. What ends up happening when you use a laser to see if you have bad trigger control is you don't end up looking at the front sight. Focus 100% of you attention at the front sight and let the trigger pull be subconscious. If you wind up staring at the laser dot, you attention ends up on pulling the trigger which is not a good thing.
 

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I'll post a positive for the laser... when teaching my wife to shoot, watching the laser was a great way for me to help her understand what she was doing on each shot. If you've got a spotter, they can help.

Not sure what to recommend, I have a TLR-2.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the replies guys, keep the good info coming.

In regards to my questions:

1. That is how I assumed the trigger should be controlled, one fluid motion from front to back. If I creep on my J-frame trigger, it starts to shake wildly in my hand. This is what I found with the P2000 as well, only it was a less pronounced shake and more of a "jerk". It seemed that if you take up all the slack just before it goes "boom" you lose a proper sight picture. Althougth the LEM is not half as heavy as my J-frame trigger, it just made it easier for me to transition from one to the other over my unlce who has no DAO revolver expierience.

2. If it can be converted to V2 DA/SA what would be involved? It would need to be done by a qualified gunsmith correct? How would the safety/decocker be added? I've forgotten if there is a cut out for it even on the V3 model.

3. Asynchronism, that was my idea as well. I figured I could hook my uncle up with the laser and watch the dot as he fired. I have been told that it is easier to notice if the shooter is "jerking" at the last second by what the laser is doing.
 

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H&K 4 LIFE,
I would recommend taking up the simulated DA travel until you reach the sear and then just fire as you would single action. Same goes for follow up shots except now the trigger is back so release until you feel the sear engage.

The DA/SA version of the P2000 has a slide mounted decock control and no manual safety option. You will need parts for the frame and the slide for the conversion.

I had the LEM trigger in my USP compact and ended up removing it and reinstalling the variant 1 trigger. I assessed the LEM as being a cocked pistol with a simulated light double action (not very convincing) pull. If I'm going to carry with a charged firing system I'd rather just have a manual safety safeguarding it. Maybe I'm overlooking the merits of LEM but I would guess that it's true merits are that it's simple. No heavier first pull, no DA to SA transition, no decocking.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I must say, personally after firing the P2000 V3 LEM, I will not be purchasing a pistol with LEM myself. Like you Sertory I have found I now favor the DA/SA setup alot more. It seems the LEM will still take my uncle and I some time to get used to, but I think I will stick with DA/SA for the guns I buy.
 

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It seems the LEM will still take my uncle and I some time to get used to, but I think I will stick with DA/SA for the guns I buy.
Try firing it like it's a single action, as in take up the simulated DA travel until you hit the sear (stage) adjust sight picture and fire. After you fire don't allow the trigger all the way foreword, instead release only until you feel the sear engagement, basically just ignore the simulated DA pull. I call it simulated because it's created by a stiff trigger return spring and not the hammer spring. I got my best groups using this method. Pulling straight through didn't work for me at all because of the dramatic difference in resistance between the light pull and actually meeting the sear. I feel inclined to add that the usual rule of keeping your finger out of the trigger guard until you're ready to fire of course still applies and no recommendation has been made to the contrary.
 

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All:

I started pistol league with my Kahr P9 and shot 300-400 consistently out of a possible 500.

This is my second year starting pistol league with my LEM P-2000. I shot a 175 and a 210 last week.

I think I'm used to my new glasses by now.

If anyone else has any tips, I'm all ears.

Kowboy
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Try firing it like it's a single action, as in take up the simulated DA travel until you hit the sear (stage) adjust sight picture and fire. After you fire don't allow the trigger all the way foreword, instead release only until you feel the sear engagement, basically just ignore the simulated DA pull. I call it simulated because it's created by a stiff trigger return spring and not the hammer spring. I got my best groups using this method. Pulling straight through didn't work for me at all because of the dramatic difference in resistance between the light pull and actually meeting the sear. I feel inclined to add that the usual rule of keeping your finger out of the trigger guard until you're ready to fire of course still applies and no recommendation has been made to the contrary.
Wow, that all makes alot of good sense. I will pay alot more attention to the trigger reset next time I get the chance to fire the P2000. Thanks for the help, I appreciate it!
 

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Let me just reaffirm your findings: Sometimes a gun and the shooter just are not a good match for each other.

Case in point, I recently purchased a P2000 .40SW LEM and was horribly disappointed with my piss poor accuracy when firing the gun. I tried swapping in the lighter LEM springs and that improved things a bit, but my groups still weren't groups at all. Just loose collections of shots somewhere near each other in the target.

I've shot Smith and Wesson M&P automatics, S&W 1911s, Kimber 1911s, Glocks and SIGs with much better results than I got from the P2000 LEM. :(

As much as I want to force myself to acclimate to the LEM trigger, I believe it is either natural for you or it isn't. I fall into the latter category. Trying to force myself to adjust to the LEM is like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

So I am going to shoot a DA/SA (V3) P2000 and see if I am any better with it. If I am, then I will trade. If I am not, then the P2000 will be going up for sale soon and I guess I'll be heading another direction. I'm really disappointed with the LEM and my inability to "get it right" with this gun.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Tungsten, you have made some good points. Trying to force yourself to get used to the LEM doesn't sound like a good idea to me either. If after multiple range sessions my uncle is still unable to shoot it reasonably well then I will recommend he get the DA/SA model instead. However, this was our very first time with this gun, and I do feel that going at it again with some tips in my mind will improve our accuracy . I will suggest he give it more time, but if the shooter and the pistol fail to "mesh" then I don't see any alternative to letting it go.

If LEM works for some of you then thats great, I'm not bashing HK's design because it has it's applications for those who like it. Personally, I will be staying away from LEM, and because my next pistol will possibly be a SIG, the DAK trigger as well.
 

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I agree with you about the DAK. A friend of mine turned me onto the idea of the LEM after he had done extensive reading and research that lead him to believe that it might be a great system for someone like me (and him) who wanted the pro's of a single action with the follow-up of double action.

However... he had never actually fired an LEM equipped HK before yesterday, and as soon as he fired mine he looked at me and said "I hate this". I wanted to shoot him in the knees since he convinced me to give it a try in the first place. ;)

He's toying with the idea of the DAK now but I told him that he needs to consider his experience with the LEM as a warning and proceed with caution. For some reason he's trying to deviate from the DA/SA models, but that's where I am headed next. I really hope it's the answer to my quandary as I've spent a lot on doo-dads for the P2000 now. Holster, mag carrier, night sights, etc.

Thankfully I've got a good relationship with my gun shop of choice and thankfully they have a gently used DA/SA P2000 in their cabinet right now. The owner of the shop and I are going to head to the range early this week and see if that gun does any better in my hands than the LEM gun does.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
That sounds really good. You will get to fire the other variant before you purchase it, how much better could it get?! I really like the P2000, but like your friend, my first comment about LEM would have to be "I hate this". It's not even remotely close to a DA/SA trigger, but I guess thats the point. If you are used to DA/SA like me and my uncle I truly feel you will like the DA/SA variant of the P2000 much better. I am convinced it is not the gun that I dislike, it is the LEM trigger.

FYI, I just bought another Glock. A G19. (you may start booing and hissing starting....now) However, one of the many things you can count on with the Glocks is the trigger being the same from one model to the next. I can shoot my G26 and transition right over to my G19 without skipping a beat, and plus I can use the 15rnd. G19 mags in my G26. The trigger on my USP Combat Comp. is DA/SA, a Match trigger crossed with LEM. It has a nicer pull and reset than the Glocks and is the only other trigger setup I have favored over the Glock trigger. I have shot Beretta, SIG, and Smith & Wesson, DA/SA automatics but in my opinion the triggers on the HKs and Glocks are better.
 

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I had a Glock 23 that I never should have gotten rid of. My complaints about that gun were simple: Lack of ambidextrous controls and lack of a fully supported chamber. Otherwise it was a perfect concealed carry weapon.

The P2000 would be the ultimate... but not for me with the LEM trigger. I am really anxious to see how the DA/SA gun does for me tomorrow.

On a side note, I picked up a SWEET new SIG P220 Carry SAO the other day as a trade for a S&W 1911 that I had. This SIG is awesome. It addresses all of the complaints I had about the older P220 guns (heavy, big, etc) and packs it all into a 1911 Commander size.

I may end up carrying THAT if I can't get the P2000 to work out for me.
 

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The P2000 would be the ultimate... but not for me with the LEM trigger. I am really anxious to see how the DA/SA gun does for me tomorrow.
I am thinking of making the switch from v2 to v3 for my personal firearm as well since my duty pistol is now DA/SA and I want to keep a consistent action between the two pistols. Please post your thoughts after you go shooting!!

Regards,

AmicusCuriae
 

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...

I think LEM is the greatest thing since sliced bread... especially when lightened slightly by changing out the firing pin block spring.

It breaks in VERY NICE!![/borat] as well and continues to get more and more smooth as time goes on. My P2000 in .40 is LEM and I recently just converted me USP 45 Tactical to LEM and haven't looked back since.

Since I almost always practice shooting double-taps from a concealed draw and have pretty specific time-limits I have to meet (2.00 secs for the draw, 0.50 for follow-up), I don't have time to "creep" to the breaking point stage and readjust before I shoot. When you're talking about being under time contraints like that, it's impossible to have that kind of control.

I shoot with one solid pull from the initital take-up to the final break, trying to maintain even pressure and as much control as possible. With the lighter firing pin block spring, the breaking point on the third stage of the LEM is barely noticeable when the momentum of your trigger-finger is added to the equation.... there's almost no break at all when it is shot quickly, however, when you creep slow, you can stall at the breaking point quite nicely.

Then, with each follow-up, I try to bring my trigger finger just back to the reset point, and continue with follow-up shots, minimalizing movement as much as possible... that way it's very similar to an SA/DA, without that annoying transition.

The key word there is try... :D

Anyway, here's me on the range a little while ago as an example of what I'm talking about... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ii_uyAkXs
 

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In Nashville proper I would use Franklin Gun Shop as they do actually stock several H&K pistols generally. Outside of Nashville I have also had good success with Guns & Leather on the north side of town.

My favorite place to go, however, is a bit of a drive down toward Mont Eagle in Winchester, TN. It's a shop called Hero Gear and it's absolutely firearms heaven if you like 1911s and AR rifles. Joe and those guys can order almost anything you could want. He ordered my HK for me and has a used P2000 V3 sitting there right now that I hope to try out and trade for tomorrow if it works better than my V2 does.

Please don't rush down there and swipe that V3 before I get a chance to see if it remedies my problem with the P2000 tomorrow. :26:
 

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Thanks for the info; I will have to check out Hero Gear...

Please don't rush down there and swipe that V3 before I get a chance to see if it remedies my problem with the P2000 tomorrow. :26:
Don't worry; I am out of town for quiet some time and won't have a chance to snatch it up. Otherwise, you know what they say, "All is fair in love and war [and HKs]...."

Please kindly do keep us all posted on how you like the v3.

Regards,

AmicusCuriae
 
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