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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What is your typical group size for HK91 / SR9T(C)/ MSG / PSG1
(Please note rifle and if 3 round or 5 round groups).
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From an informal rearch of postings and asking associates about typical group size when shooting from the bench with a scope I am getting the general feeling on accuracy of:

HK91 is a 2 MOA rifle if you master the trigger (possible 3 MOA+ with the stock trigger for some). With a better trigger (i.e. PSG1 or Williams) and good gun might be closer to 1.5 MOA with a few smaller groups to keep in your wallet.

SR9T are in two two groups, the ~1MOA (with a few sub MOA wallet groups) and the 2 MOA rifles.
With one or two good shooters with good rifles doing 0.6 to 0.8 MOA with the SR9T or early poly barrel HK91s


Reason for interest is looking at semi auto "medium"* precession rifle and options on the table are: </font><ul type="square">[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Keep existing HK91 stock and pick up a bolt gun (Rem PSS or FN SPR) < $1K</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Upgrading exsiting HK91 with improved trigger & stock $1K+ (however is part time sear host)</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Non HK rifle (M1A or AR10)<$2K</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">MSG "budget" clone of current HK91 (match barrel, PSG1 trigger & MSG90 stock) - no host for sear</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">SR9T (has PSG1 trigger, MSG90 stock and poly barrel)</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2nd HK91 with PSG1 Trigger pack, MSG90 stock - $3K+</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2nd HK91 made into budget MSG clone close to $5K - Above budget / get Tittle II item)</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PSG1 $10K? - Above budget! / get auto sear</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Buy one of the known very good shooting rifles - how?</font>[/list]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ 12-13-2003, 21:29: Message edited by: JTinIN ]
 

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Id buy a hk91 and a nice bolt gun, the psg1 and msg90 conversions are overpriced if youre simply looking for an accurate rifle to shoot. If youre looking to build a psg1 or msg90 clone because you want one thats one thing, but if youre just looking for an accurate rifle, go with something else. A regular hk91 will get around 2-4moa accuracy, a sr9 might get a little more, but will more than likely be about the same. For the price of a psg1 you could buy an hk91 and an amp dsr-1, which will shoot much more accurate than 99% of people alive are capable of.
 

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I agree with porcupine. Keep the 91 as-is and buy a bolt action.

A lot of people think that a high rate of sustained fire is impossible with a bolt action. It is not. It only needs some diligent practice.

Remember, the sitting and prone rapid fire stages of the National Match course of fire are ten rounds with one reload in 60 and 70 seconds respectively, and were designed to be shot with the M1903.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Appreicate the comments.

Got ride of my 300 Win mag PSS for a couple good reasons and have an AR10A4 that scoped nice, however, keep having issues with it working.

Was looking at either .308 PSS (possible with a little custom work) or one of the FN SPR ... when got side tracked onto the semi auto rifle (the HK SR9T does save a couple hundred over the M1A or AR10 in mags ... put cost more to start).
 

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JTinIN,

In my experience, I can routinely get 1.5 MOA with my pet HK-91. I decided to take the HK "No Compromise" approach to upgrading it without doing any perminent mods. I went for the PSG-1 Trigger, and G3SG-1 stock with adjustable cheek piece (my favorite adj. stock) with a HK rubber but pad. This stock is slightly longer than standard and provides a great stock weld.

I used HK's clamp-on scope mount and a Kahles x6 ZF-84. The key for me, is using some Gun-Scrubber to de-grease the mount and receiver before mounting the base on the rifle. Then, I lapped the aluminum ring inserts and de-greased them as well before installing the scope. As a general rule, I don't make a habit of removing the mount once it's installed.

I gave the barrel a thourough cleaning with some Hoppes Benchrest. Then, I plished the bore with some Flitz and cleaned it again with the Hoppes Benchrest. Finally, I began a regimine of treating the bore with Tetra-Gun (TW-25B works great too).

After I found my rifles favorite factory loads, (Remington & Federal 168gr. BTHP Match) my groups became amazingly consistant. When I do my part, I can get a 3rnd. clover-leaf at 100yds. 5rnds. Never exceed 1.5 MOA and are usually about 1 MOA.

The key to getting an HK-91 to perform IMO, are:

1) Proper bore conditioning.

2) De-Greasing the scope & mount before installation.

3) A good trigger like the PSG-1 or Williams Trigger Specialties:
http://www.williamstriggers.com/

4) A longer stock with a rubber butt pad.

5) Last but very important, Ammo selection.

Well, that's been my experience with my HK-91. I think out of the box, it was a pretty good shooter to begin with, but after a little TLC, it really began to reach it's full potential.

Germanic
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the ideas! In particular like the idea of degreasing the scope mount, had not even though of that with the HK (is step in mounting all the scope bases on bolt guns) and the bore treatment - have always fired with dry bore (Hoppies #9 follow by a couple dry patchs).

The existing HK91 did not shoot any better with Fed GMM, however, with the stock trigger did not expect the groups to do much better (I never have done will with a hard trigger pull .... in part always had nice triggers on bolt guns).

Like the G3SG1, however, appears now days that can get the MSG90 stock for nearly the same cost and not all the G3SG1 stocks have the larger buffer.
 

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fn spr

:320000:For a bolt gun you should hane bouhgt the fn spr ive owned one for several years ,you talk about a tack driver .Mine has a 20'' bull barrel mcmillen stock ss scope ''a great scope for the price'' it holds a zero like no other rifle i have ever shot or own .I continuisly shoot cold bore sub moa groups, its a great rifle ,my g3 all most keeps up with it though one of the best ever made in my opinion,Mine also ha a set trigger that makes a big difference.
 

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For a great bolt gun, go with George Gardner at GA Precision. http://www.gaprecision.net/

His Crusader model is guarenteed 3/8 moa, and the Rock is guarenteed 1/2. I have a rifle built by George, Rem 700 with AICS stock, Schneider 5p barrel, and NightForce optics scope as my duty rifle, and it is ALWAYS 1/2 or below. On good days I shoot sub 1/4. You can get into a setup like this for around $5,000.

However I am looking for a great auto loader for fun and was considering a HK 91 or clone. How well does the MSG91 perimeter rifle from JLD shoot?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Been nearly five years since the first posting and since that time have picked up the MSG90A1 stock and PSG1 trigger pack for the HK91, which shoots well enough that got ride of the AR10 and a couple M1As (one heavy barrel and one NFA and then ended up with a friends rack grade M1A as he needed money, plus a couple FALs from other friends). The HK91 shoots well enough with Federal AE ball (still over a MOA and no where near as good as the PSS was*) that is is the keeper out of the various semi auto rifles, however, need to find another HK91 some day now for a sear host (or possible an HK11).

Just got back from Cheyenne Wells shooting out to a mile with the friends BMGs, post sample G3 & MP5 (life is rough, he even supplied the ammo), the Barrett M82A1 and out to 1500 yards with the PSS* and M1A (the HK91 was left as was a last minute trip and did not have the 1200 meter iron sight installed and sighted in yet) and loaned a .223 host to friend (easier to split up the load and shoot on his sear than mine ;-).

Found the discussion on 'better' bolt guns interesting and like the FN's chrome bore, in particular after shooting all day on the line with the PSS and having to run something down the bore (with range safety issues, can really only work on guns when the line is hot, unless you bring a RV to work in). Another note is that the HK91 would have broken down nicely for cleaning and packing ....

Photos and Flash Videos at: http://www.issmc.com/50bmg
 

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Read your post with much interest.

I have wrestled with these same issues for some time now. Over the years I have steadily built up my 91 (William's set trigger, MSG-90 stock, better optics, etc.), but I think I have reached a point of diminishing return on my investment.

I guess this is sort of like the custom tuner scene in cars. I have friends that spend thousands of dollars "upgrading" their Honda's and Mistubishis. By the time they are done (and they are NEVER done), they could have bought a used Porche, which would ultimately blow the doors off their modded Civic. For them, though, the fun is in trying to get the Civic to compete with the Porche.

Same thing with the 91. You KNOW the gun is supposed to be a battle rifle that shoots 2-3 MOA. If you can tweak it to get 1-1.5 MOA, there is some fun in that.

Ultimately, I decided that the cost and wait times in having my 91 modified for further accuracy just didn't make sense, and I bought an AR10-T. The gun is very accurate (.75 MOA or better, with a few "ragged hole" groups with handloads) and you can modify it so that its ergonomics are good. I have a PRS stock on mine and a MIAD grip.

Downside is that it is very heavy (13.5 lbs unloaded and without optics).

I have never had any issues with gun, and it has fed and extracted anything I put in it.
If you already have an A4, you might want to think about buying one of Armalite's heavy barrel uppers. The accuracy is pretty good, and the cost would be less than what you would spend on "upgrading" your 91 (c. $700 for a new upper with bolt).

Good luck with whatever route you go. Post target results in the Range Report section.

Greg
 

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HighGear,

There is a write up on the JLD in this month's issue of Special Weapons or something. Headline read something to the extent that it was an "MOA shooter", but the test results seemed to show that it shot 1.5-2.5" goups at 100. Guess if you just discount the "called flyers" it might be an MOA gun. I'm still of the mindset that, for ultimate accuracy, the AR10T is hard to beat for the money.

That said, the MSG-90 is my all time favorite semi-auto precision rifle, and if funds were not an issue I would have one built.

Also, glad to hear you like your GA Precision. I just got my Rem back from George this week. Haven't gotten a chance to break it in yet. I have almost the exact same setup as you. I love the AICS. Have had it on the rifle for two years now, and have never found a stock that fits me as well. Money well spent.

Curious to know what reticle you are using in your NF. I'm leaning toward U.S. Optics myself, but am on the fence.

Feel free to PM me due to lack of HK content.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Read your post with much interest.
.....
I have never had any issues with gun, and it has fed and extracted anything I put in it.
If you already have an A4, you might want to think about buying one of Armalite's heavy barrel uppers. The accuracy is pretty good, and the cost would be less than what you would spend on "upgrading" your 91 (c. $700 for a new upper with bolt).

Good luck with whatever route you go. Post target results in the Range Report section.

Greg
Glad you had good luck, I had issues with the Armalite not extracting a few percent of the time (i.e. one failure every other mag) plus the hammer pin would back out (thus allowing doubling). Tried for six months to get a new hammer from the company (they lost an order, forgot to send an order out and then the new zone rep would not even sell me one with out sending the gun back in, which shipping cost more than the part) and nothing could be done for the extraction issue (rough chambers about that time). Ended up with so many issues with AR10s in this part of Indiana (there were several of us with the same issue, the rifle would go back and forth from the factory multiple times), one could not and still can not, sell a used Armalite, nor really even give one away (had a friend pass on mine ;-), nor do the local stores even carry their 308 rifles (did leave a bad enough taste that I got a Barrett instead of an AR-50 last year).

For about the cost of the AR10A4, I ended getting the accessories for the HK91 and it shoots better on average, plus always works if I clean it every few years ;-) and glad the AR10A4 is gone, life is too short. Been very happy with the HK91 and PSG trigger pack ....
 

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HighGear,

There is a write up on the JLD in this month's issue of Special Weapons or something. Headline read something to the extent that it was an "MOA shooter", but the test results seemed to show that it shot 1.5-2.5" goups at 100. Guess if you just discount the "called flyers" it might be an MOA gun. I'm still of the mindset that, for ultimate accuracy, the AR10T is hard to beat for the money.

That said, the MSG-90 is my all time favorite semi-auto precision rifle, and if funds were not an issue I would have one built.

Also, glad to hear you like your GA Precision. I just got my Rem back from George this week. Haven't gotten a chance to break it in yet. I have almost the exact same setup as you. I love the AICS. Have had it on the rifle for two years now, and have never found a stock that fits me as well. Money well spent.

Curious to know what reticle you are using in your NF. I'm leaning toward U.S. Optics myself, but am on the fence.

Feel free to PM me due to lack of HK content.

Greg
Yeah, they like omitting all the bad shots or "called flyers". If I could just ignore all of my "called flyers", then my SR9T is a sub-MOA rifle. With the 'flyers' its about 1.5.
 

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I usually shoot 5 or 10 rnds... that is a group... 2 to 2.5 inch

bad day 3" 6X scope. std trigger. this is a clone G3 with an old shot out FMP barrel. Milsurplus ammo.

I agree about flyers... what is a flyer... isn't that just cheating?

I also see guys shooting at like 20 sticker spots on a target and shooting 3 shots groups... yes there are a handfull of same hole clover groups.. but ther are many 1+ inch groups... and this is a bolt action... not in a rest though...

I have shot two 1.5 to 2 inch groups back to back from my M1 garand with open sights... full 8 rnd clips... my buddies can talk all the **** they want... they cant do that with open sights! All the flyers counted too!

I call it by what you could say I can do this every time... somtimes yo can do better, but you can always do X" for me it is about 2"

LO
 

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I've searched a long time for a seriously accurate semi auto 308, and I've finally found one that does as good as my bolt gun. It's a PSG1 clone that with 175gr Black Hills shoots seriously sub MOA. My PTR will shoot anything and with patience can to 2 to 1.5 moa.. with surplus!
 

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I usually shoot 5 or 10 rnds... that is a group... 2 to 2.5 inch

bad day 3" 6X scope. std trigger. this is a clone G3 with an old shot out FMP barrel. Milsurplus ammo.

I agree about flyers... what is a flyer... isn't that just cheating?

LO
Supposedly, a called flyer is when you make a shot that you KNOW wasn't on target, and you have to "call" it before you look at the target with a spotting scope to know where it really hit. Like if the trigger breaks because you inadvertently jerk your finger or something.

I think the idea is to omit ones that are obvious shooter errors and not the gun's fault.

Sometimes it makes sense, like I've seen some groups where there will be 4 or more rounds that fit under a quarter, and then one is off by 2". I guess it's not fair to then say it's a 2 MOA rifle, when the problem was with the shooter.

It may just be ammo, but I get weird groups like that from my SR9T - I'll have 3 or 4 shots all very close, then one blasts off 2" high and right, even though the crosshairs were exactly on the center just like the others were. Then the next one goes right back to the main group.

But I still haven't tried any really good premium ammo, I just can't bring myself to pay $30 for 20 rounds or whatever it costs now.
 

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My 91 is about a 1MOA average rifle. 3 shot groups Sometimes smaller, and sometimes bigger. That is with Federal premium with a Sierra hunting bullet. I need to try some match ammo!

I do think I got lucky with this rifle. I will never sell it
 

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I took my rack grade HK-91, cleaned the barrel with nitro-solvent and lubed it with TertaGun (removed the excess of course.) Then installed a PSG-1 trigger group, G3-SG1 stock with rubber butt pad & HK 1pc claw mount with a Kahles ZF-84.

Off sand bags with match ammo from a cold barrel, it will cloverleaf 3 rounds at 100yds. It looked a lot like the test target you get with a Cooper rifle.

That's good enough for me.

(Naturally, one shouldn't expect to put an entire 20rnd mag into that sized group.)
 

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What is your typical group size for HK91 / SR9T(C)/ MSG / PSG1
(Please note rifle and if 3 round or 5 round groups).
-------------------------------

From an informal rearch of postings and asking associates about typical group size when shooting from the bench with a scope I am getting the general feeling on accuracy of:

HK91 is a 2 MOA rifle if you master the trigger (possible 3 MOA+ with the stock trigger for some). With a better trigger (i.e. PSG1 or Williams) and good gun might be closer to 1.5 MOA with a few smaller groups to keep in your wallet.

SR9T are in two two groups, the ~1MOA (with a few sub MOA wallet groups) and the 2 MOA rifles.
With one or two good shooters with good rifles doing 0.6 to 0.8 MOA with the SR9T or early poly barrel HK91s

[ 12-13-2003, 21:29: Message edited by: JTinIN ]
I got groups 1/2 the size you quote for the SR-9T; 0.35 to 0.5 inches at 100 yards using M852 (168 grain HPBT) ammunition. I'm no great shooter and I've no idea how representative that rifle was. Needless to say, I sold it. So I'm not a good rifle collector, either.

:20000000:
 
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