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I'm not sure how to spell the name of the ammo company HITTENBERGE but I think its pronounced like I spelled it. It is like 100 grains and is +p ammo. It is hot and I was told it is used by German law enforcement for their pistols. Any how I got a good group but I only fired one clip since I was worried if it was real hot. Any comments on this opinions welcomed.
 

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If it is great stuff anyone know where to get some. I bought the stuff I had years back and was told it was an over run so they were being sold.
 

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Hirtenberger L7A1?

That's SMG ammo. Its chamber pressure is about that of a 9mm proof load.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yeah that's the stuff. It worked fine out of the pistol but was worried to shoot it. Can it be had?
 

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Yeah that's the stuff. It worked fine out of the pistol but was worried to shoot it. Can it be had?
Sure, you could probably find some on gunbroker or possibly at a gunshow.

It may have worked fine, but dude, you were playing with fire. Commercial "+p+" meant for pistols such as 9BPLE or RA9TA have chamber pressures under 42,000psi. L7A1 is like 55,000.

Frankly, you're lucky not to have a disfigured face or missing fingers.
 

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Yeah that's the stuff. It worked fine out of the pistol but was worried to shoot it. Can it be had?
 

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TGS, thanks for the input. I wasn't sure how Ho it was nor was aware that it was made for sub guns. I won't be shooting it out of my P7 any longer. I only shot one mag. I'll use it out of the department MP5. Thanks again TGS
 

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... It is like 100 grains and is +p ammo. It is hot and I was told it is used by German law enforcement for their pistols. ...
- The German police agencies (and any other LEOs or the Bundeswehr f.e.) normally get their ammo by DAG (now part of RUAG Ammotec) and MEN.
- In the mid - late eighties some state polices tried Geco and Hirtenberger for some time. The Berlin Police f.e. bought a batch of wrong labeled ammo from Hirtenberger. It was the L7A1 instead of the standart 9mm NATO. Bends and breaks the roll pins of some of our P6.
- Before we get the new special police rounds like MEN Quick Defense or RUAG/DAG Action 4, the standard police cartridge was the 9mm NATO (DM41/DM11), 124gr FMJ.
- The only "non-standard" 9mm cartridges were/are the 147 - 150gr sub sonic ones, only used by our SEKs and the GSG9.

100gr +p - never.
 

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TGS, thanks for the input. I wasn't sure how Ho it was nor was aware that it was made for sub guns. I won't be shooting it out of my P7 any longer. I only shot one mag. I'll use it out of the department MP5. Thanks again TGS
I would be wary of doing that, too. HK beefed up the MP5, calling it the MP5F (F=French) in preparation for a contract of 35,000 units for the French, who used extremely hot 9mm ammo around that of a proof load. This can be found on HKPRO's "The World of HK" MP5 article.

According to other uncited sources around the net, the L7A1 was NOT designed for use with the Sterling in Arctic conditions. It was used by the British MoD in MP5's, and after 1992 they switched to using lower pressure L12A1. Given the development of the MP5F for similarly loaded cartridges of around 50,000+psi, we can reason it was because of breakages.

So, unless you want to be held responsible by your department for the abuse of a service weapon, I'd refrain from firing it out of an issue MP5.

Maybe G3Kurz can chime in and offer some first hand knowledge.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for all the insight TGS and Veto 11, I always liked the Geco stuff it worked great and was always reliable. I had some in 9mm and 32acp. wish I could find it again. I will make sure I don't use that stuff in my pistols anymore. I am wondering if the H&K P30 can handle it. I only have one box left of the stuff. I was amazed at the accuracy of it too bad its hot. Veto have any of the pistols using this Hirtenberger ammo at that time have had any other damage except for the pins breaking or have there been barrels blown up or pistols severally damaged?
 

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Thanks for all the insight TGS and Veto 11, I always liked the Geco stuff it worked great and was always reliable. I had some in 9mm and 32acp. wish I could find it again. I will make sure I don't use that stuff in my pistols anymore. I am wondering if the H&K P30 can handle it. I only have one box left of the stuff. I was amazed at the accuracy of it too bad its hot. Veto have any of the pistols using this Hirtenberger ammo at that time have had any other damage except for the pins breaking or have there been barrels blown up or pistols severally damaged?
Not a P30, but...

When the US Navy issued Beretta 92's in the early 80's to NSW before it was modified into the 92FS pattern and adopted as the M9 JSP, they were using 9mm ammo with a chamber pressure of around 50,000psi. They had slides fly off the frames into the face of a few shooters. Subsequently, Beretta made changes to the design, but the military also corrected their ammunition choices.

Also, if you like high velocity stuff check out these offerings. They will all be safe and not cause excessive wear in your P30:
Buffalo Bore, 124gr JHP at 1300fps or 115gr JHP at 1400fps
DoubleTap with an 80gr SCHP at 1500fps(?)
Winchester's Ranger-T 127gr +p+, this is the only one proven to meet the FBI/IWBA standards
Federal's 9BPLE, 115gr +p+ JHP

If you want GECO again, keep your eyes out at Ammotogo.com. I've ordered a few thousand rounds of GECO from them. They haven't had it in stock for the last month or so, but they usually seem to restock it in time.
 

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I do not have hands on with this particular round. I will caution anyone against using any round developed/loaded specifically for use in open-bolt SMG's. The US Navy used the IMI "TZZ" round in their MP5's that destroyed a lot of bolts (and slides on M9's in the SEAL teams resulting in injuries). Obvioulsy the HK guns mentioned are not open-bolt guns and therefore do not require that level of impulse or pressures and it will increase wear and tear and ups the possibilities of weapon damage. All HK's are designed by HK and testing to NATO ammo specs. Use that as your guide. I have fired NATO, SAAMI +P and +P+ in P7's and MP5's with no issues expect some +P+ loaded in aluminum cases which I avoid in any fluted chambers - seen too many raised flute marks in these cases which strains the extractor. I would steer clear of this ammo unless you like replacing parts.

G3Kurz
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks once more, I appreciate all the input. TGS, I have used the Winchester, federal, Remington, cor-bon and many others. I never heard of Buffalo bore 9mm ammo. I really like the Winchester and the Remington 124gr +p Saber rounds. The Geco stuff is really what I like. Thanks guys.
 

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AFAIK it happens to 5 or 6 of more than 12,000 P6 taht were carried, no one was hurt, no pistol was repaired by our armorers. Never heard about other damages.
They were send to a proof house and/or to the central federal police institute for detailed analysis. Cause it happens in the pre-Internet era, we, the cops on the street, never heard or read anything about the results of the analysis.
All departments of the West-Berlin police, who used this batch of ammo had to change the roll pins. Thats it.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Veto11, thanks once more for the info. It's good to know these things. Some times the information is not put out there and it results in injuries. Then it is too late. How was the Geco ammo rated with your force? Did it rate good results or was changed due to other reasons? Did any H&K issued handguns experience problems with the ammo?
 

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Says right in the ad that FL is good for semi-automatic pistols. 280Mpa is about 40,600psi, so it's similar pressure to other commercial loads like Ranger-T 127gr +p+ (42,000psi, IIRC). Thanks for that ad, xm177!

Do you know if this is what you shot, or was it L7A1?
 

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... How was the Geco ammo rated with your force? Did it rate good results or was changed due to other reasons? Did any H&K issued handguns experience problems with the ammo?
- As far as I know, the (West-) Berlin Police used only DAG and MEN, exceppt the short time we tried Hirtenberger. That's what we were told by our armorers.
During my time as a cop we get our ammo in military style grey card boxes with a white paper lable, with a lot of NATO codes on it but not the manufacturer named. I had "collected" some of these boxes and were later told by some cartridge collectors that the manufacturers were MEN and the "real" DAG, not their subsidiary company Geco.
I think it was all the time like today, DAG made the military/law enforcement production line and Geco the civilian one.
I never found 9 x 19 surplus offered as made by Geco.

- No agency in (West-) Berlin ever had/has HK handguns. Until 1960 we ( the police) had many different pistols, revolvers, bolt action and semi auto rifles and carbines, SMGs and MGs.
Since 1960 we changed to
-- Manurhin P1, PP, PPK, MPl (MP3) and MPk (MP4),
-- MAS G3 (A2/A3 ?),
-- Mauser Borsigwalde MG42, converted by Manurhin into the MG MRH 3 A3 (MG3 without AA-sight),
-- SIG-Sauer P6 and P226 (SEK, PSK, MEK, body guards) since 1980,
-- HK MP5A3 since the mid eighties.
-- PSK had the G5 (Steyr SSG 69) and since 1984 the PSG1. Later Steyr SSG PIV, DSR1 (.338 Lapua), HMI Terminator (.50 BMG),
-- SEK: Benelli M3T Super 90, HK 512, P9M (Glock 17), Glock 26, MP5k, MP5SD3, G 37 (SG551-2P SWAT, used as sniper rifle for short distances under urban conditions like the SG551LB-2P too), Accuracy International AWPF, MAS or HK G3A4.

- Department of Corrections:
-- Manurhin P1, MP3, SIG-Sauer P6, HK MP5SFA1 with a longer barrel.

- Custom:
-- Manurhin P1, MP3, SIG-Sauer P6, HK MP5A2.

You see, we never ever give HK a chance in handguns. But me.

Did I take Geco for my P7s or my wife for her P226? No, but we had tried Geco (like Fiocci or MagTech f.e.). We prefer S&B. Same or better quality, much cheaper.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I have cases of he S&B stuff is real lean nd nice to shoot. Not a bad choice in ammo.
 

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I can also confirm that you should never fire the IMI/TZZ 85 9mm ball ammo, designed for the Uzi SMG (not really).........The Navy had tons of the ammo, and it was loaded over proof.......I saw it blow up an open bolt Uzi and saw the following handguns destroyed by it:

Beretta 92SB (F) - Fractured slide and broken barrel lock
H&K P9S-Navy - Fractured bolt face
Sig P226 - Cracked frame and broken extractior
MP5 K - Pre Navy model with 5.5" barrel - Cracked bolt head and destroyed roller retainer

Damaged pistols:
HK P7 (PSP) 5.5" long barrel threaded for stainless Navy suppressor - damaged extractor.....still fired and ejected!
Browning P35 - cracked barrel unlocking lug in frame and broken ejector
CZ 75 PreB model owned by SEAL Team 2 shooter. Peened barrel locking lugs and cracked ejector
H&K P9S-Target - Cracked bolt head and peened buffer.

I remember talking at length with Charlie at H&K Customer Service and with a Marine reservist who was a Military Sales rep for H&K......when he was at Little Creek/Dam Neck on his active duty (Tom Macnamera ?). The H&K reps fixed my P7 and installed a factory length barrel at no charge. Charlie sent me a new "Navy" bolt head......the "TZZ" model with enhanced durability......and beefier front face.

I know the MP5's all had to be gone over since the TZZ ammo was so pervasive as a training round. The Navy models later had what is now known as teh Action 3 bolt....but that may have happened during the early 1990's.

I still remember the guys at H&K in Chantilly were great to me........back when you could get a brand new P7M13 under the military officer direct buy program for $600.........I remember playing with the SMGII with the funny looking stainless steel suppressors in the basement range at Chantilly. Also a great tour of the factory area..........where they should have been making the us made P7 and MP5.........good times.......

That TZZ stuff was so bad the IMI reps said that they did not even recommend shooting it in any 9mm weapon....even the Uzi.......WTF?????

It always looked like it was loaded with M16 powder............I still have some boxes of the crap............it used to punch through the old Level 2a vests and the Navy ended up dumping the ammo.
 
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