[watergun]

Who is making the best HK 21 and 23 clones and why? I'm new and possibly looking to get one,just curious what everyone's response would be.

Thanks

 

[JTinIN]

First would get the e model as the swing down tray is a lot nicer than the older pre e and second you can easily do multiple caliber swaps.

Friends have several HK21s from various builders ranging from ok to near junk .... none of which are fired much including the post sample. Half dozen of us have MM23e or MM23eKs and half have 308 kits. Everyone has been happy with Mike and his teams service, delivery and support (mostly with minor fitting of sear packs and the ejector). Communications has been perfect. Of coures I am biased since a content costumer along with friends. Don't know of another complete HK23e clone, yet, that does not need some HK23e parts from a kit etc. But have not been shopping

Check out 556beltfed.com for few photos and a video of an old guy shooting a MM23ek.

 

[watergun]

Hey John, thanks for the link and the heads up on the "E" model, I'll check it out. Anyone else have ideas?

 

[df662]

Michaels Machines, TSC Machine, RDTS, Belfed INC. All the guys listed make great beltfeds. You have two choices, beltfed made out of mostly US made parts, or hunt down a original German E parts kit and have one of those builders put it together, very rare kits, prices start at around $10k+

 

[watergun]

Hey df662, thanks for the great info! I'll start checking these guys out and see what they have to offer.

Thanks again

 

[Jwmohr]

I've seen early HK-21's done by a number of builders, great gun, but a pain in the rear decklid to load wihouth a pull tab. Do yourself a favor and buy and HK23e from Michael Otte, you will never ever look back and his guns are second to none.

 

[Chopstix Kid]

Michael's Machines. MM21E / MM23E.

 

[jackman8]

+1 On Michael's Machines. Work of art, and life time warranty.

 

[JTinIN]

Watergun

First you have to decided if you want only a 308 gun, in which case you can look at an HK21, one of the improved "HK21's with some "e" features or the "HK21e. You might find an older "HK"21 conversion for well under ten grand, however, would strongly recommend shooting it with your sear first as have seen some of the older guns that were shall we say problem children ;-). However, as soon as you toss in the option of 223 (which I have not seen in a non "e" version myself either in person or "live on the net") then you have two options that I know of today - find a German HK21e parts kit and have someone built it for you or get one of Mike's MM23e's (which Adam lists for sale ready to go for $11,995 - Michaels Machines MM23E, MM23 - HKPARTS.NET )

For options on the MM23e would get a second barrel, consider two heavy barrels if you wish to shoot mostly prone, the SAW box adapter and I like the welded on optics rails for an Aimpoint or low power (1 to 5) scope. You can also order a 308 kit with a couple of barrels if you wish. The last option, that I went with and dumped my Shrike, is going with the shorter MM23eK, which still takes the same long light weight MM23e barrels, can use a shorter ~12" inch barrel, is nicer to shoot off hand and still can take a 308 kit. Photos and video at http://www.556beltbet.com.

P.S. If you are ever near central to eastern Indiana, let me know and should be able to let you shoot one in exchange for a diet Coke (standard fee in the group for nearly anything short of re barreling an HK, which costs a six pack of Coke and a six pack of good imported beer, after the work is done ;-)

 

[rhouston8]

Watergun,

Here are detailed pics of my MM23E.

https://picasaweb.google.com/rhoust...&authkey=Gv1sRgCMH3wK-Tqd_nAg&feat=directlink

It's a fun gun and reasonable entry into the beltfed world, esp. if you have a sear. I have a few acc. like JTinIN above mentions, including the .308 hot swap kit which is a very nice addition. The MM23 is not cheap but it's a fine gun. I did have some pack timing issues that Mike worked out for me. He's very easy to get in touch with and responsive to customers. I'd imagine that >100 of the MM23E's are now out in the wild being shot by owners, etc so I'm betting whatever kinks may have existed have been thoroughly worked out.

Beltfed Inc is building a 23E clone as well. I'm not sure they are in mass production yet but we're all expecting great things from them as well. I don't have any direct exp. with Beltfed Inc or the other builders. I hear that Carlos + his gun will be at GhillieBear's shoot in Stilwell.

Of course, I rec' that you simply hook up with someone near you for a taste of shooting one. I've found most of the beltfed guys are cool and very informative about their guns. It takes a different level of commitment (time, learning, $$, ammo $$, timing, complexity, etc, etc) to be a beltfed dude...I'm def. a rookie at this point.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing (and gun porn pics are mandatory!)

-hh

 

[Spitfyr]

Michaels Machines MM23e for me

 

[watergun]

Watergun

First you have to decided if you want only a 308 gun, in which case you can look at an HK21, one of the improved "HK21's with some "e" features or the "HK21e. You might find an older "HK"21 conversion for well under ten grand, however, would strongly recommend shooting it with your sear first as have seen some of the older guns that were shall we say problem children ;-). However, as soon as you toss in the option of 223 (which I have not seen in a non "e" version myself either in person or "live on the net") then you have two options that I know of today - find a German HK21e parts kit and have someone built it for you or get one of Mike's MM23e's (which Adam lists for sale ready to go for $11,995 - Michaels Machines MM23E, MM23 - HKPARTS.NET )

For options on the MM23e would get a second barrel, consider two heavy barrels if you wish to shoot mostly prone, the SAW box adapter and I like the welded on optics rails for an Aimpoint or low power (1 to 5) scope. You can also order a 308 kit with a couple of barrels if you wish. The last option, that I went with and dumped my Shrike, is going with the shorter MM23eK, which still takes the same long light weight MM23e barrels, can use a shorter ~12" inch barrel, is nicer to shoot off hand and still can take a 308 kit. Photos and video at http://www.556beltbet.com.

P.S. If you are ever near central to eastern Indiana, let me know and should be able to let you shoot one in exchange for a diet Coke (standard fee in the group for nearly anything short of re barreling an HK, which costs a six pack of Coke and a six pack of good imported beer, after the work is done ;-)

I have been looking at MM website and really like the MM23EK. How does the caliber conversion work? I thought the receiver would only take 5.56mm components. Somebody enlighten me.

Thanks

 

[watergun]

Watergun,

Here are detailed pics of my MM23E.

https://picasaweb.google.com/rhoust...&authkey=Gv1sRgCMH3wK-Tqd_nAg&feat=directlink

It's a fun gun and reasonable entry into the beltfed world, esp. if you have a sear. I have a few acc. like JTinIN above mentions, including the .308 hot swap kit which is a very nice addition. The MM23 is not cheap but it's a fine gun. I did have some pack timing issues that Mike worked out for me. He's very easy to get in touch with and responsive to customers. I'd imagine that >100 of the MM23E's are now out in the wild being shot by owners, etc so I'm betting whatever kinks may have existed have been thoroughly worked out.

Beltfed Inc is building a 23E clone as well. I'm not sure they are in mass production yet but we're all expecting great things from them as well. I don't have any direct exp. with Beltfed Inc or the other builders. I hear that Carlos + his gun will be at GhillieBear's shoot in Stilwell.

Of course, I rec' that you simply hook up with someone near you for a taste of shooting one. I've found most of the beltfed guys are cool and very informative about their guns. It takes a different level of commitment (time, learning, $$, ammo $$, timing, complexity, etc, etc) to be a beltfed dude...I'm def. a rookie at this point.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing (and gun porn pics are mandatory!)

-hh

NICE GUN rhouston! Thanks for the detailed pics.

 

[JTinIN]

The receiver on a MM23e and MM21e are both the same size (i.e. 308 size). Thus to change calibers one checks that the gun is unloaded, lowers the belt feed system and then takes the two pins off and removes the stock. At which point you remove the bolt group and recoil spring out the back, remove the barrel (quick change so only takes seconds), pull the pin on the feed box and you have one MM23e apart. Reverse using the 308 barrel, 308 feed box and 308 bolt group (the recoil spring is the same, I think) and you now have a MM21e ;-).

I am waiting on shooting a friends 308 kit before deciding on the 308 kit (other option is keep the 1919A4) or waiting on the 7.52x39 kit.

 

[jackman8]

I have been looking at MM website and really like the MM23EK. How does the caliber conversion work? I thought the receiver would only take 5.56mm components. Somebody enlighten me.

Thanks

Watergun, You can switch from .223 beltfed to .308 mag fed and to .308 beltfed all on the same receiver. That's what is so cool about having a swing down feed mech gun.

 

[rhouston8]

Jackman...
I didn't realize that one could mag feed the MM21/23.
What all does that involve...looks like a mag well adapter
replacing the feed mech on your pics. Is it easy, fast, & reliably shoot
with that magwell???

Y'all other MM21/23E owners out there...anyone
else have direct first hand experience with this? I wouldn't mind using my .308 drum
on my MM every now and then. I dig those drums and
have a couple for my 91 & 51.

-HH

 

[watergun]

Watergun, You can switch from .223 beltfed to .308 mag fed and to .308 beltfed all on the same receiver. That's what is so cool about having a swing down feed mech gun.

OHHHH MAN!!!! I love modularity and interchangeable calibers, NICE WEAPON SYSTEM. SOOOO...... does Michaels Machines make a MM23eK that will also accept a mag fed box for both calibers (5.56mm & .308)? I am also looking at 300 AAC Blackout as another interchangeable caliber on the 5.56mm platform with just a barrel change. Another question, I noticed the MM23eK has a short shroud which I like, will you be able to put full length 7.62 barrels in that short of a shroud? I know you can put a 16" 5.56mm barrel in the short shroud but wasn't sure on the 7.62.

 

[watergun]

The receiver on a MM23e and MM21e are both the same size (i.e. 308 size). Thus to change calibers one checks that the gun is unloaded, lowers the belt feed system and then takes the two pins off and removes the stock. At which point you remove the bolt group and recoil spring out the back, remove the barrel (quick change so only takes seconds), pull the pin on the feed box and you have one MM23e apart. Reverse using the 308 barrel, 308 feed box and 308 bolt group (the recoil spring is the same, I think) and you now have a MM21e ;-).

I am waiting on shooting a friends 308 kit before deciding on the 308 kit (other option is keep the 1919A4) or waiting on the 7.52x39 kit.

Thanks JTinIN for the info, I wasn't sure.

 

[JTinIN]

Jackman...
I didn't realize that one could mag feed the MM21/23.
What all does that involve...looks like a mag well adapter
replacing the feed mech on your pics. Is it easy, fast, & reliably shoot
with that magwell???

Y'all other MM21/23E owners out there...anyone
else have direct first hand experience with this? I wouldn't mind using my .308 drum
on my MM every now and then. I dig those drums and
have a couple for my 91 & 51.

-HH

Takes a mag well adapter and possible a new bolt carrier to clear the feed lips vs cycling the belt feed system. Hopefully the the mag kits comes out after the 7.62x39 kits (just a little bias here ;-)
HH do you have a couple beta mags for the 53 yet, if not would be a good way to spend $500 before the next shoot ;-)

 

[JTinIN]

OHHHH MAN!!!! I love modularity and interchangeable calibers, NICE WEAPON SYSTEM. SOOOO...... does Michaels Machines make a MM23eK that will also accept a mag fed box for both calibers (5.56mm & .308)? I am also looking at 300 AAC Blackout as another interchangeable caliber on the 5.56mm platform with just a barrel change. Another question, I noticed the MM23eK has a short shroud which I like, will you be able to put full length 7.62 barrels in that short of a shroud? I know you can put a 16" 5.56mm barrel in the short shroud but wasn't sure on the 7.62.

You can put any of the 308 barrels in the MM23eK that have the same profile as the standard 223 barrel, which are available in either "full length" or a shorty. Video of a short 308 in a "MM21eK" MM21EK - YouTube