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Discussion Starter #1
I really like the looks of the 416, but it sucks that it's not available to civilians! :(

I'm looking to buy something similar to the 416, made by HK, that is legal for civilians to own. Can anyone recommend anything?

Do the clones of the HK guns still use the delayed roller locking operation?

Is there a good clone of the 416 that uses the delayed roller locking mechanism and is legal for civilians?

Thanks!
 

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The HK 416 does not use the roller delay locking system. That system is synonymous with the MP5, G3, etc.

The 416 uses a gas-piston operating system.

There are a few domestic manufacturers of gas-piston op systems. LWRC, POF, and LMT are a few.

FWIW HK 416 uppers are available in very limited numbers on the open market. The prices very from $3500-$4500+ for the upper only.

LMT makes great stuff. Unless you are a "collector" I would hold out for a complete gas-piston rifle from them en lieu of the HK 416 upper.
 

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If you want looks, then just about any AR platform should do. The HK416 is an AR platform with a gas piston operating system (instead of gas tube). There is nothing similar to the 416 made by HK with respect to looks.

If you want a delayed roller lock system, then you can go with HK 91/93/94 or their clones. PTR (formerly JLD) & Vector are two that make 91/93 clones while Cohaire/Coharie makes a 94 clone.
 

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FYI: Wilcox U.S. built HK416's & HK417's are in the works. Let's hope the long wait is over some time in 2008.
no way will the U.S. civi version of the 416 be out in 2008. I would guess 2010. look at how long it took for the P30/HK45 to make it here and they are pistols. and if a U.S. 416 would be out in 2008, HK would have it at the 08 shot show. and that still doesnt mean it would be out in 08. and lets not forget the Dems are taking over the white house.......
 

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Again. As much as I hate playing "devil's advocate," I don't believe a Wilcox built HK 416/417 will ever make it to the civilian market. Only time will prove me wrong, or right for that matter. I would not hold my breath for it to happen.
 

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no way will the U.S. civi version of the 416 be out in 2008. I would guess 2010. look at how long it took for the P30/HK45 to make it here and they are pistols. and if a U.S. 416 would be out in 2008, HK would have it at the 08 shot show. and that still doesnt mean it would be out in 08. and lets not forget the Dems are taking over the white house.......
I look at the other way.

How long has the HK & Wilcox deal been news?

Not very long – but they have already produced some HK45 parts and sent them off for HK Germany’s approval. This means to me that Wilcox is serious about building guns and making it happen. Let’s face it, this is a BIG opportunity for them to become more than a optic mount / one-off Spec Ops product company. Judging by the speed they are moving along with the HK45 partnership I’m trying to be optimistic.

I also refuse to believe these guns will not be offered on the civilian market. U.S. companies know how big of a market it is and how much money can be made.

SHOT 2008? Maybe that’s being overly optimistic, but LATE 2008 / early 2009 would not surprise at me all.

That being said, anything can happen.
 

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I look at the other way.

How long has the HK & Wilcox deal been news?

Not very long – but they have already produced some HK45 parts and sent them off for HK Germany’s approval. This means to me that Wilcox is serious about building guns and making it happen. Let’s face it, this is a BIG opportunity for them to become more than a optic mount / one-off Spec Ops product company. Judging by the speed they are moving along with the HK45 partnership I’m trying to be optimistic.

I also refuse to believe these guns will not be offered on the civilian market. U.S. companies know how big of a market it is and how much money can be made.

SHOT 2008? Maybe that’s being overly optimistic, but LATE 2008 / early 2009 would not surprise at me all.

That being said, anything can happen.
You have some valid points.

If it were any other two companies I would be as optimistic. However, this is HK and Wilcox; so I would not bet the farm on anything.

Wilcox has been less inclined to sell to the public as HK (Yes it is possible). Try ordering anything from them without a .mil email address. Go to the Wilcox webpage and order something right now. They don't even sell their Aimpoint Mounts to the public. That makes it hard for me to believe they will sell whole rifles to anyone outside LE/MIL.

The HK45 "might" be produced there. But again that "might" be a vie for a Military Contract. Once the U.S. Army is taken out of the equation and another branch (AIR FORCE perhaps) steps up to procure a new .45 (Much like they did with the M16 in the 60's) with other entities on board NAVSOF or Navy Fleet Security and Boarding Teams, then I can see why Wilcox would want a crack at the potential contract.

As far as making more money goes, both Wilcox and HK could have been doing that a long time ago. I think they are "content" with the security that government contracts bring without the potential of civil liabilities.

If it (civi 416) happens GREAT. But all the talk that it WILL HAPPEN on the net is just "gibberish" and "wishful thinking" at this point.
 

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Let's remember, HK Just sent for approval for german civilian sales to the german government for the MR223 and MR308 wich are the civilian versions of the 416 and 417. I'm guessing these will be the same semi auto rifles we get here in the US.

http://hkpro.com/hkpro416civilianannouncement.htm

The HK45 will be made by wilcox. Once they start producing it, there will be no german HK45s so It looks like things are falling into place. It will probably take more time than any of us would like, but it look like it IS happening.
 

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Nothing, but nothing is an absolute in the weapons world. My take on the situation is that HK has been far from enthusiastic about civilian sales because they are even less inclined to deal with the bureaucratic gubbermint rat maze than other companies. Given all the import restrictions and hoops to jump through, it's not really surprising. However, it doesn't seem to me that HK is the kind of company that would partner up with another company just for fun. They have gone through the pain of vetting a partner. They have stated that they will produce HK45's in the US and those are already available for civilian purchase (why would they reverse course). They have stated that they will produce civilian versions of the 416 and 417 and have gone so far as to create civvie models for their own country's civilian consumption.

Do I think it's gonna happen instantly? Nope. I do consider it a fait acompli, though. Making these things in the US allows for the bypass of a lot of the gubbermint hoo ha that HK has shown a dislike for. I would venture to say that we will see the civvie versions of the 416/417 on display at SHOT this year, along side their select fire brothers. My guess is that the 416 will actually start getting into civvie hands in Q3 or Q4 of '08 and the 417 right after that. Of course, by then, it will cost almost as much as a new weapon to shoot the 417!

All of this could change with the election of a new regime in the US and new "evil gun" laws.
 

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You have some valid points.

If it were any other two companies I would be as optimistic. However, this is HK and Wilcox; so I would not bet the farm on anything.

Wilcox has been less inclined to sell to the public as HK (Yes it is possible). Try ordering anything from them without a .mil email address. Go to the Wilcox webpage and order something right now. They don't even sell their Aimpoint Mounts to the public. That makes it hard for me to believe they will sell whole rifles to anyone outside LE/MIL.

The HK45 "might" be produced there. But again that "might" be a vie for a Military Contract. Once the U.S. Army is taken out of the equation and another branch (AIR FORCE perhaps) steps up to procure a new .45 (Much like they did with the M16 in the 60's) with other entities on board NAVSOF or Navy Fleet Security and Boarding Teams, then I can see why Wilcox would want a crack at the potential contract.

As far as making more money goes, both Wilcox and HK could have been doing that a long time ago. I think they are "content" with the security that government contracts bring without the potential of civil liabilities.

If it (civi 416) happens GREAT. But all the talk that it WILL HAPPEN on the net is just "gibberish" and "wishful thinking" at this point.
No question you are right, as nothing has been set in stone.

I know Wilcox is also a rather off the beaten path company that historically sticks to the niche market it has carved out for itself, but with that being said I had no trouble ordering a Wilcox Aimpoint mount several years ago. I also think the very products they offer helps to give them this reputation. While they do make various optic mounts that could be marketed towards the civilian market they don’t push them so they get over looked in a market flooded with LaRue, A.R.M.S., KAC, ETC and their heavy advertising & marketing plans. As for the rest of their product line how many civilians are interested in various NV mounts, MICH helmet brackets, parachute accessories, PATRIOT Life Support System, and other various Spec Ops specific products? Hence Wilcox has very little to do with the civilian market and 99% of civilian gun owners have never even heard of them.

I think the million-dollar question is how HK/Wilcox will respond when they have the U.S. HK45/HK416/HK417 production lines up and running but no major U.S. military contracts signed yet. It seems to me like the U.S. mil is in no hurry to upgrade their small arms even in the face of very substantial evidence that it’s long over due. Let’s face it HK could have kept on filling their various U.S. HK416/HK417 MIL / LE orders from the German factory if they did not have bigger plans for these U.S. made guns. I also think HK submitting the HK416/417 for German civilian sales is a huge sign in the right direction. Maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but that’s probably just a sign of how bad I want a semi 16” HK417.
 

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A couple of points and observations. Just because Wilcox is involved in a joint venture with HK to manufacture weapons doesn't mean they will have anything to do with selling them. This will most likely be set up as a third company, who will sell to HK USA, who will distribute the guns.
Also don't set yourself up to get all disappointed when a US built 416 is NOT shown at SHOT. HK has already said that they would not show the gun till the NRA Show.
In fact HK is sending a very light staff to SHOT.
 

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A couple of points and observations. Just because Wilcox is involved in a joint venture with HK to manufacture weapons doesn't mean they will have anything to do with selling them. This will most likely be set up as a third company, who will sell to HK USA, who will distribute the guns.
I think you are 100% correct.

Also don't set yourself up to get all disappointed when a US built 416 is NOT shown at SHOT.
No question you are also correct on this point.
 

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Allow me to clarify... I never said that a US built 416 will be shown. What I did say was that the semi version will likely be shown. I have no idea who will have assembled it, though it will likely be HK Germany. The Hk45 was on display at SHOT LONG before it was in the pipe for distribution. I could be wrong.
 
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