HK Bore Axis question

8510 Views 33 Replies 17 Participants Last post by softmentor, Dec 1, 2007

bzinbv

Discussion Starter · Nov 30, 2007

I was doing a little surfing regarding HK's 416 when I came across a thread on another forum that had some serious HK bashing: (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72167). Part of the rant has to do with how much higher the HK pistols' bore axis is compared to other designs, and how much harder it is to get back on target for a follow-up shot. I search around HKPRO to find out a little more about this issue, but I did not come across any hard data or measurements about bore axis.

Has anyone come up with any bore axis measurements comparing a USP/HK45 to a Glock or 1911? What I'm really after is to determine how much of an improvement the new HK45 is relative to the USP, and if the HK45c has the same improvements.

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cueist

· #2 · Nov 30, 2007

I don't see how the 416's bore axis could be higher then say a Colt M16, or M4 since HK designed the 416 Upper to be placed on current in service lowers.

If the 416's bore axis was higher then the mechanical componate interlockings would not be compatable, also the ammo would not be able to feed into the chamber since the barrel would sit higher on the lower.

bzinbv

Discussion Starter · #3 · Nov 30, 2007

I was interested in the comments refering to HK pistol bore axis. The thread is a long one and gets off the subject of 416's and becomes a debate about HK as a military supplier.

cueist

· #4 · Nov 30, 2007

Ah, my bad I didn't bother to read all of the pages

The the HK45 does feature a lower bore axis, I don't knwo the measurements, but you should ask member GregBell who is running tests on his HK45.

S5TIIOwner

· #5 · Nov 30, 2007

I thought bore axis was subjective? Isn't one of the measurements made off how and where you hold the grip?

faris13

· #6 · Nov 30, 2007

to me bore axis is not a big deal. There are more important factors to me than bore axis such as the grip on the pistol, how the pistol points, trigger, trigger reset.

I have owned glocks, m&p's, Sigs, H&K's and walthers. I've realised that for me the difference in bore axis has a minimal impact in how I shoot.

sfguard

· #7 · Nov 30, 2007

I think it is a bunch of crap written by people that want to hate people who only buy the best. I have several HKs, and only one Glock. That should say something about that theory. I don't have measurements to give you but the recoil system in the Hk is by far superior to that in most other pistols. IMHO I have no trouble shooting double taps due to it. But then again these are the same people still complaining about HK CS and we all know how wrong they are about that too.

softmentor

· #8 · Nov 30, 2007

From a subjective point of view, I shoot the HK USP 45 better than other guns which may have a lower axis according to some technical mesurment. Most feel the recoil is less, and more manageable overall that other guns. For me, the proof is in th puddin' and I shoot well with the HK USP.
Not an issue for me.

bzinbv

Discussion Starter · #9 · Nov 30, 2007

I've just seen references to a higher bore axis, but never the amount. Sometimes these things take on a life of their own. It wouldn't surprise me to fine the difference might only be 0.050" yet folks will think all kinds off performance issues can be attributed to the difference. I'm not even sure if my HKs are higher than my Colt 1911s. The trigger alone on the 1911 will impact my target shooting, yet I carry the HK for a host of reasons, reliability being near the top of my list. I am curious to see the difference between the HK45c and the USPc. I know I will buy one when they come out, I actually called CDNN to get on a list when they do become available.

Scooter

· #10 · Nov 30, 2007

Bore axis isn't subjective. If you are not holding the gun as high up as possible, you aren't doing it correctly.

Here's a picture I posted a while back comparing a USP vs. S&W M&P. The picture has not been scaled. It simply overlay my grip on both guns as high up as possible.

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carboncycles

· #11 · Nov 30, 2007

scooter, nice job on overlaying the 2 photos. i didnt realize there was that much of a difference.

Scooter

· #12 · Nov 30, 2007

I don't have one with a P7 in there, but the P7 is even lower than the M&P.

FYI Glock is very slightly lower than the M&P which is slightly lower than the XD.

Greg Bell

· #13 · Nov 30, 2007 (Edited)

Bore axis is the most overblown internet B.S. since Y2k. The P7M8 has the most amazing low bore axis ever. Whoop de do.

I am going to start a new internet gun nerd topic: Side weight/velocity ratio. Low bore axis actually creates more apparent recoil because they tend to have lower slide weight than guns with heavier slides. WOOHHH. Gotta get more bore axis!!

Anyway, if bore axis is your thing, buy a M13, everything else is crap. If SLIDE WEIGHT/VELOCITY Ratio is your thing, get a Desert Eagle.

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diesel1959

· #14 · Nov 30, 2007

I tend to like to have more of the mass of the weapon IN my hand rather than ABOVE my hand. Most of us aren't as worried about recoil as we are with the muzzle flip that recoil, acting through a longer moment arm can create.

Greg Bell

· #15 · Nov 30, 2007

Yes, the USP's muzzle filp is incredible. The gun nearly flies:45: out of my hand!

Just kidding. I am just saying this whole bore-axis debate is so overblown it is comical.

Mark71

· #16 · Nov 30, 2007

Greg Bell said:
Yes, the USP's muzzle filp is incredible. The gun nearly flies:45: out of my hand!

Just kidding. I am just saying this whole bore-axis debate is so overblown it is comical.

Greg I agree with you 100%. Its just another thing that the armchair commandos love to talk about.

rwb_1969

· #17 · Nov 30, 2007

I find grip angle to be more relevent for me than bore axis. In that regard the only pistol that bothers me is my Glock 19. Good gun but due to its grip angle it does not point as naturally for me as an HK or SIG.

I can say I have never honestly taken note of a gun's bore axis. Just my .02.

Scooter

· #18 · Nov 30, 2007

Bore axis, slide weight, and slide velocity does make a significant difference depending on what you are doing. The typical person that just goes to the range, it won't really matter. For competition shooters, it will make a difference. While competitions aren't won on splits, a good balance gun like a M&P allows you to drive the gun faster and with less effort than a USP.

USP's are soft shooting because the recoil is translated into muzzle flip. Where as the P7 can be considered almost violent because the recoil is translated straight back. Give those guns to a new shooter, it will be easier for a new shooter to shoot at a faster split without much effort.

sfguard

· #19 · Nov 30, 2007 (Edited)

Mark71 said:
Greg I agree with you 100%. Its just another thing that the armchair commandos love to talk about.

While they are talking about it I am out shooting. Also, I will compete with my HK up against them and their Glock anyday.

diesel1959

· #20 · Nov 30, 2007

Greg Bell said:
Yes, the USP's muzzle filp is incredible. The gun nearly flies:45: out of my hand!

Just kidding. I am just saying this whole bore-axis debate is so overblown it is comical.

I don't disagree with you there. I'm still in the "find what fits your hand and you can shoot well" camp. Then go out and shoot the hell out of it.

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