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Discussion Starter #1
Feel like a lawyer who asks permission for a little leeway as this is about handguns.

I have had Grey Guns do work for me on an HK45 C, probably my favorite HK of all time. Grey guns has done work on 3 guns for me
and the work has always improved my triggers and haven't had to send it back to HK.

However, a warranty is a good thing. According to the rep., a few minutes ago, and trigger work voids the warranty. I previously thought it was only changes to the frame, like the "Vickers mod." But, no, and not only no, to do any work on the gun, they have
to get the gun back to original specs, or un-do what someone else has done. When I asked why, I was told that any polishing
can (don't want to put words in his mouth) can change the tolerances and cause failures.

I've had dealing with the factory in the past and get that the word teutonic should translate as my way or the hwy. HK makes
damn nice pistols, so they do have a point. Ironically, it was delivered w/a southern accent which, if anything, lessened the authoritative tone like a lightened trigger spring, but the reduced tone didn't make it seem any less hard headed and punitive.

I get that it is a combat gun. It is for me, part of the charm, but I'm not headed to the sandbox. I want it for home defense.
If Bruce Grey installs a carry package, coats the parts with nickel phosphate or whatever it is, has a track record (one smith
said they never had a problem with Bruce's stuff) then I'd think it would help HK sell more guns. They do not offer an
alternative at the factory as, say, Sig does.

It is their right. They do make very good guns. But, I do think that the Bruce Grey carry package is value-added. If they want
to void the warranty, so be it. I'd still get it done. But, to say they'd have to get the gun back to original spec before they'd charge me to repair it, seems teutonic at best, and extortion at the worst.

If they're going to be this way, why don't they send a factory trained smith to do trigger jobs. God knows they need it, despite
the fact that it is a combat gun. It seems hard-headed, autocratic, counter intuitive, and less than great customer service which
we all know is encompassed in the word teutonic,(and perhaps jackass) whatever the accent. Who knew that it keeps the word creep in the phrase HK trigger pull.

Before you say it. I don't want an LEM mod, I'm old school, cocked and locked and my habits are formed. Why re-learn a
trigger because some engineer in Neckar thinks he built the better mouse trap? At some point in the lengthy trigger pull, I
tend to break my wrist slightly and I'll shoot some perps toe off when I'm aiming for center mass.

It isn't a rant, in that I've dealt w/the factory before and I expected the response I received. I should have known better. They can say what they want, they do make great guns. I have owned several and will get a couple more.
 

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What he said isn't untrue and why should they trust any external company that does modifications to their guns that isn't factory? You still have a warranty, you just have to pay to put it back to stock where they know that gun wont be a liability. If you're having issues with your gun, send it back to GGI. (If it applies) Otherwise, you made the choice to modify your gun, don't bitch about it. You're a big boy, nobody made you modify your gun.

The same thing would happen if you sent in a S&W with a different sear or trigger and that holds true for just about every pistol manufacturer I know of. If you can't afford the cost of playing with Hk's, buy something cheaper. Although I think you'd complain any way.
 

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Trigger jobs are purely a personal preference. Some may like it and some may not ever want it done. I, for one, do not care for a trigger job. I learn to shoot it the way it came from factory and I like it that way.

So to say that "why don't they send a factory trained smith to do trigger jobs. God knows they need it, despite the fact that it is a combat gun" is absurd. If you don't like the trigger, get a Sig or 1911.

That's my two cents.
 

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The same thing would happen if you sent in a S&W with a different sear or trigger and that holds true for just about every pistol manufacturer I know of.
Same with Glock, I have seen where pistols come back with all stock parts thrown in, and the aftermarket parts in a bag inside the case. As Wolvee stated, I can't think offhand of any manufacturer who would do warranty work with the pistol having aftermarket internal parts or work done. The bright side is, they didn't tell you they would not work on the gun.
 

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I think the difference between Sig (in your example) and H&K is pretty clear.

H&K is a LE/Military product that happens to also be produced for the civilian market. Their weapons are not designed for competition shooting. I think there is a good reason you don't have a lot of accessories / options from H&K.

Whereas (imho) Sig is a shadow of of it's former self now. They care a lot more about making money and seem to have shifted their focus to designer guns exclusively for the civilian market. Unique finishes and exotic wood grips and every bell and whistle you could ever want on your range gun. I mean, who wouldn't want a rainbow titanium 226?
 

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I guess I'm in the minority. I don't "F" with my guns. If I don't like the way they shoot, or if the creep is too bad, or if the trigger is gritty, or if the over-travel is too much, or the reset is too far, or if the trigger finger rubs the trigger guard, or if the trigger doesn't break like glass, or if the trigger is mushy, or any other ridiculous description of a trigger I've ever heard of exists- THEN I SIMPLY DON'T BUY THE GUN. There are plenty of nice options out there for us. Not hatin' on anyone here who likes to mod their guns, but I simply don't have that kind of time or patience.
 

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One word... liability.

As good as Bruces' work is (I'm sure it's excellent) HK as a company is not going to trust anything but their own factory parts in unaltered condition. I don't think this is at all unreasonable, and actually the typical stance of most firearms manufacturers.
 

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I guess I'm in the minority. I don't "F" with my guns. If I don't like the way they shoot, or if the creep is too bad, or if the trigger is gritty, or if the over-travel is too much, or the reset is too far, or if the trigger finger rubs the trigger guard, or if the trigger doesn't break like glass, or if the trigger is mushy, or any other ridiculous description of a trigger I've ever heard of exists- THEN I SIMPLY DON'T BUY THE GUN. There are plenty of nice options out there for us. Not hatin' on anyone here who likes to mod their guns, but I simply don't have that kind of time or patience.
Simply couldn't have said it any better than this.
 

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I think the difference between Sig (in your example) and H&K is pretty clear.

H&K is a LE/Military product that happens to also be produced for the civilian market. Their weapons are not designed for competition shooting. I think there is a good reason you don't have a lot of accessories / options from H&K.

Whereas (imho) Sig is a shadow of of it's former self now. They care a lot more about making money and seem to have shifted their focus to designer guns exclusively for the civilian market. Unique finishes and exotic wood grips and every bell and whistle you could ever want on your range gun. I mean, who wouldn't want a rainbow titanium 226?
Amen on both points, especially about Sig right now.
 

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After all is said and done, HK pistols could do with a better DA trigger. I know this from personal experience with my four USPs. I've gotten to using them as a 1911 SAO most of the time in order to avoid the bad DA trigger. On the other hand, the SA pull is just perfect. I keep thinking that the "combat pistol" view is no excuse for a too-heavy, rough, stacking DA operation. Wasn't the 1911 a "combat pistol" for umpteen years? IMHO, HK should improve the DA pull precisely because it's a combat handgun. Just my twopence's worth.

PS: I would never send my USPs anywhere for a "trigger job." You can have a heavy [and presumably safer] DA pull from the factory that is smooth, etc., to wit, the LEM variants. And I think that the USP v1 system is the best, safest, and most versatile one there is.
 

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I guess I'm in the minority. I don't "F" with my guns. If I don't like the way they shoot, or if the creep is too bad, or if the trigger is gritty, or if the over-travel is too much, or the reset is too far, or if the trigger finger rubs the trigger guard, or if the trigger doesn't break like glass, or if the trigger is mushy, or any other ridiculous description of a trigger I've ever heard of exists- THEN I SIMPLY DON'T BUY THE GUN. There are plenty of nice options out there for us. Not hatin' on anyone here who likes to mod their guns, but I simply don't have that kind of time or patience.
I'll be the first to admit to being one of those Hk noobs that started posts asking about why the triggers suck as bad as they do.

Eventually I realized that I'll take a SUCK trigger any day of the week, if it works every time, over a crisp break and orgasmic reset that doesn't work when I need it to.

I decided that the only thing I couldn't live with was the 14.9lb (My scale/New) DA on my P30L so I put in a USP 10# hammer spring and it's been all roses and daffodils for the last 12,000 rounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I don't disagree with much that was said. Valid points. However, I was hoping that I made it clear, that although
I'm not necessarily a "big boy," but am an adult, did by the gun willingly, and will buy more despite the seeming teutonic,
my way or the hwy. approach. They make very good, sometimes great weapons and they know what they are doing.

I have or had more than a handful of the major semi custom 1911's, so I can afford to play w/HK's. In fact, one reason
that I buy them is that I think they are a comparative bargain.

There is nothing wrong with the gun. But, I sold an HK45 as I'm one of the percentage that gets his finger hurt that
the so called "Vickers mod.," could help. Bruce Grey improved a pretty decent trigger on an HK45c. So, why not?

HK made the guns available to civilians and good thing, as they didn't have much of a market for military sales. Certainly,
not what they intended. If it is going to be purchased by civilians, why not accommodate them w/a custom dept. w/
certified armorer's or approve an aftermarket guy like Bruce Grey, or Bowie. The guy that helped design the HK45
recommended the changes as an improvement and recommended a smith too. If you are going to hire a consultant,
why not listen-although they wouldn't be the first.

Talking about the changes at Sig is a post in itself, and a long one. Talking about comparing them to HK is another.
But, both are selling guns to Americans, both have a presence here and are selling in the civilian market. One, is
simply catering to that market while the other, not so much. If one did less and the other more, then the world would
be a better place in my unqualified opinion.

I own 3 Sigs. My Sig 1911, the extreme is a much tighter gun with a much nicer trigger than their original offerings.
Much was written about extractor problems, but it hasn't been my experience. The factory trigger job improved a good
tigger and that trigger compares well to some semi custom guns that I own. I have Sig 9mm whose new grip really fits
my hand) and is as accurate as my CZ custom 9mm. Granted, the brand isn't what it once was, but Sig still makes some
quality hand guns. The 220 that I own (dark elite) fits my hand and that is an improvement over my original
W. German one, and that improvement is a good thing. Wouldn't bet that the over-all quality is, but I'm not a gun
smith. I do think the 220 is a good home def. gun, although not as good as the HK45, especially a modified one by an
accomplished smith.

The HK goes bang and that is the important point. If you learn to drive the gun, then it is surprisingly accurate. But,
the trigger can be improved. Their consultant said so, and why not? I can afford to ignore the warranty and I don't have
to depend it on it exclusively, but not everyone is in my shoes. So, why not accommodate a civilian market in the same
way that you did with multiple back-straps.

There was less hard headedness when Neckar wanted a military contract. It isn't that they can't change?

All I'm saying is why not, if the smith is capable and has a certification by them.
 

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BRT...
This is not a my way or the highway situation. This is the legal landscape that ALL companies of any consumer good face every day. It has nothing to do with being German. You are asking HK to warranty a repair on a gun that was modified outside the scope of their control. Period. It doesn't matter if Bruce is the incarnation of the Buddah... He's not an HK certified, authorized AND INSURED gunsmith armorer. No warranty work for you unless you put it all back to the way it was created by HK.

In all deference, though, HK *has* accepted a lot of warranty work and done it when they clearly should not have even considered it.
 

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That'd be like getting a brand new Mustang, sending it out to a performance shop to get "the works" and then getting pissed at Ford for not honoring the warranty. Why would HK want to fiddle with some third party persons work to "make it right" when as far as HK is concerned it was right when it left the factory? You want to mod it then mod it but don't expect it to be protected under the warranty blanket when you do.
 

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That'd be like getting a brand new Mustang, sending it out to a performance shop to get "the works" and then getting pissed at Ford for not honoring the warranty. Why would HK want to fiddle with some third party persons work to "make it right" when as far as HK is concerned it was right when it left the factory? You want to mod it then mod it but don't expect it to be protected under the warranty blanket when you do.
No offense but that's why ford has roush, Saleen ,and Shelby all covered with warranty, it's the same but different,
By the way BRT I love my lem
 

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No offense but that's why ford has roush, Saleen ,and Shelby all covered with warranty, it's the same but different,
By the way BRT I love my lem
And HK has special models with Match Trigger or LEM/Match trigger if someone is not happy with standard trigger.

It actually is nice that HK in USA will only replace parts to specification, when they see modified parts, not void warranty completely.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
All good posts, good points made by all.

I am a guy that gets trigger work done. If I were a better shot, I probably wouldn't bother.

I understand warranties. It isn't a difficult concept and I've purchased a Ford Mustang Cobra before so I would't have to
get into the after market or the custom guys just to make sure my warranty was intact.

My point is that H&K didn't get the military contract that they were in line for after what must've been considerable
expense on their part. They may never get that contract and have to sell in the civilian market to pay for their
investment-although I'm not their banker.

Since they are, why not have a certified armorer's course, or an in house guy, German trained to do the basic mods.
that Vicker's talked about. Since one of their own said they've never had a problem w/the work from Grey Guns, they
could sprinkle the holy water on him or on Bowie etc.

To say you aren't that kind of guy, to mess w/your trigger might make you wise and will certainly save time and money,
there is a wider market out there for customers like myself (Bruce gets plenty of HK work) even if you don't want the
widest market that Sig is catering to, those that like bells and whistles.

All I'm saying is why not? Does reliability for a home def. gun really go out of the window if you have a custom shop.
Couldn't it be a profit center? Bruce makes money.

If they just made that one exception for moi, I'd be more than satisfied.

I'm sending my gun to GGI. Had good success in the past. If you choose not to, you'll be richer, and maybe wiser.
 

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HK does have trained armorers, they are trained to service and support the different guns as they came from the factory. HK does not train anyone on aftermarket work.

Your analogy is flawed because you are comparing a car made with a partnership with another company based off of a relationship they have, to aftermarket work on a pistol from a person who does not have that same type of relationship with HK.

I don't see what the big deal is. You also have yet to state why the firearm in question needed to be worked on at the factory. If it is related to Bills work then Bill should be the person of contact for you.
 
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