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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This isn't really about HK, it's more about training, so hopefully it doesn't get deleted I can't stand getting answers on Glocktalk so this forum is where I do most my reading now.

I like to dry fire w/ snap caps at home because I only make it to the range about once a month. I only practice with my HK as my Glock is very easy to adapt too and so is my 870. My question is how often can I rechamber my carry load? If I can I like to do dry fire practice atleast 4-5 times a week. I know there are some folks on here that have only one HK that they carry or they only have one firearm and it's a HK. So what do you guys do when it comes to dry fire practice at home. ALSO dry fire practicing saves me A WHOLE LOT of money on .45 ammo. So any advice on your regiment of dry fire practice at home would be greatly appreciated.
 

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My fiancé just put a target from our local range up on the wall. Most guys cant get away with that but shes great. Just make sure that you check your chamber to ensure its a snapcap everytime you pick it up to do so, and as an added safety keep NO live ammo anywhere near you at the time.

Some safety nazi's will tell you not to do this, but if you are careful and competant theres nothing to worry about
 

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Set aside two magazines reserved for snap caps. Find a wall, step back to arms reach and do 10 smooth draws from concealment, 10 press outs from retention, 10 SHO, and 10 WHO. I also do ten reloads, simulating slide lock. This is my daily routine. As for rechambering the same round, I would say no more than five times. Once the threshold is met, shoot the carry and replenish. I dry fire every night, takes no more than ten minutes. I also shoot no less frequent than twice a week during the Winter. Sometimes more is less with dry fire, too long of practice affords an opportunity for sloppy practice.
 

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Darebear,

I rechamber the same 2 rounds all the time. Each time I chamber them I look for setback, and after several months I haven't seen any.

You may want to take a look at this related thread at P-F.com.

Another issue that I just became aware of is this:
THE FOLLOWING TRAINING ADVISORY WAS FORWARDED FROM GWINETT COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT - LAWRENCEVILLE, GA

In September of this year a GCPD officer was involved in a situation which quickly became a use of deadly force incident. When the officer made the decision to use deadly force, the chambered round in his duty pistol did not
fire. Fortunately, the officer used good tactics, remembered his training and cleared the malfunction, successfully ending the encounter.

The misfired round, which had a full firing pin strike, was collected and was later sent to the manufacturer for analysis. Their analysis showed the following: "...the cause of the misfire was determined to be from the primer mix being knocked out of the primer when the round was cycled through the firearm multiple times". We also sent an additional 2,000 rounds of the Winchester 9mm duty ammunition to the manufacturer. All 2,000 rounds were successfully fired.

In discussions with the officer, we discovered that since he has small children at home, he unloads his duty weapon daily. His routine is to eject the chambered round to store the weapon. Prior to returning to duty he chambers the top round in his primary magazine, then takes the previously ejected round and puts in back in the magazine. Those two rounds were repeatedly cycled and had been since duty ammunition was issued in February or March of 2011, resulting in as many as 100 chambering and extracting cycles. This caused an internal failure of the primer, not discernible by external inspection.

This advisory is to inform all sworn personnel that repeated cycling of duty rounds is to be avoided. As a reminder, when loading the weapon, load from the magazine and do not drop the round directly into the chamber. If an officer's only method of safe home storage is to unload the weapon, the Firearms Training Unit suggests that you unload an entire magazine and rotate those rounds. In addition, you should also rotate through all 3 duty magazines, so that all 52 duty rounds are cycled, not just a few rounds. A more practical method of home storage is probably to use a trigger lock or a locked storage box.

FURTHER GUIDANCE:


The primer compound separation is a risk of repeatedly chambering the same round. The more common issue is bullet setback, which increases the chamber pressures often resulting in more negative effects.

RECOMMENDATION:

In addition to following the guidance provided above of constantly rotating duty ammunition that is removed during the unloading/reloading of the weapon, training ammunition utilized during firearm sustainment and weapon manipulation drills, should also be discarded if it has been inserted into the chamber more than twice. This practice lessens the likelihood of a failure to fire or more catastrophic results
Frankly, I'm not too worried about the whole primer compound falling out. This is the only case I've heard of, so that's not really conclusive enough for me to worry about it. Still, something to think about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
How do you keep track of the rechambered rounds? I heard sharpie markings is a good way to keep track.
 

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I don't.

Just like the guy in that police report, I just rechamber the one on top, so the same two get rechambered over and over. There's no setback, it's not an M4/M16 so I don't need to worry about the FP deadening the primer, and I'm not so convinced on the dangers of the primer compound falling out.

With my Kahr P380 I never chambered the same round more than twice. That has an ultra steep feed ramp, so the rounds would get noticeable setback by the 3rd chambering.
 

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Ideally, your rounds should get chambered only once. Twice is okay. Beyond that, it is a good idea to measure the overall length with a caliper or micrometer, and compare to a fresh round. Setback is real, and it's not a good thing.

Repeatedly rechambering the same rounds over and over is bad practice. If you must eject your chambered rounds, then you should rotate through several mags. When you go to the range, use up these rechambered rounds first and get rid of them.

This is the first I've heard about primer compound disintegration, but even the powder itself can be affected. The shape of the granules is carefully manufactured. Repeated long-term agitation causes the granules to break down into a finer powder, which can drastically change the way and the speed that it ignites. This is one reason why we are told not to tumble finished cartridges in a brass tumbler.
 

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I would think that the shipping and carrying of ammo would affect the powder much more than chambering a round 50 times. This weekend I'll shoot these 2 rounds that have been chambered multiple times a week and let you know if there's anything off compared to fresh HST's. What exactly is suppose to happen? Ultra fast burn? Excessive flash?

Bullet setback is real, it can happen and is documented. If your bullet isn't setback, it's not a problem, and I don't see the point in throwing away ammo just because. I've yet to see any setback in any of the ammo I've used for carry in my P2000.....Gold Dot, HST, Ranger-T.

Setback isn't hard to determine, you don't need a micrometer. Put your round up against another one that hasn't been chambered....if it's setback, it will be evident. If it's not setback, no problem.
 

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I would think that the shipping and carrying of ammo would affect the powder much more than chambering a round 50 times. This weekend I'll shoot these 2 rounds that have been chambered multiple times a week and let you know if there's anything off compared to fresh HST's. What exactly is suppose to happen? Ultra fast burn? Excessive flash?

Bullet setback is real, it can happen and is documented. If your bullet isn't setback, it's not a problem, and I don't see the point in throwing away ammo just because. I've yet to see any setback in any of the ammo I've used for carry in my P2000.....Gold Dot, HST, Ranger-T.

Setback isn't hard to determine, you don't need a micrometer. Put your round up against another one that hasn't been chambered....if it's setback, it will be evident. If it's not setback, no problem.
To answer the question of what is supposed to happen---excessive pressure in the chamber that can cause a catastrophic failure. When I reload I caliper every round to check OAL, because I want to be predictable on my pressures.

A $9.99 set of calipers are cheap insurance. Your gun, and your fingers; I'm just sayin'.
 

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To answer the question of what is supposed to happen---excessive pressure in the chamber that can cause a catastrophic failure. When I reload I caliper every round to check OAL, because I want to be predictable on my pressures.

A $9.99 set of calipers are cheap insurance. Your gun, and your fingers; I'm just sayin'.
I wasn't asking about setback, I addressed that myself.

I was asking about what's suppose to happen with supposed powder degradation.
 

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Pardon, good sir.
I'm watching a late night rerun of Spartacus where he faught Crixus, lost, and was spared....so I think I can do that! :72:

:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If I am to do this and dry fire every night then I have to get a new carry load. Lol. Because 45$ per box or 20 of Corbon DPX's will start to put a dent in the pocket. I can get a 50 round box of Speer Gold Dots for about the same price.
 

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In my opinion, you'd be better off with the Gold Dots, anyway. Corbon is nothing more than marketing and hype and not to mention, over priced.
 

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Powder degradation is a topic of great consternation... The following is my opinion, and should be treated as such. I don't believe there is any reason to worry about the breakdown of granules/flakes into smaller pieces, I have tumbled loaded rounds in a rotary tumbler for 8 hours and there was no difference in the chronographed velocities produced. A trip along any road(here in south africa more so than in the us) will result in much more vibration than chambering and rechambering a round, so will walking/jogging, driving in you car or taking a train. There *may* be some danger of the conflagration retardants coating propellents rubbing of with long exposure in a vibratory tumbler, especially if the load is only filling a small percentage of case volume. But again, the amount of rubbing cycles generated by rechambering your top two rounds is not imo high enough to cause any problems.

Setback is real and col does effect chamber pressure. If you are using rounds that are +p or +p+ you should carefully monitor your overall length, at the moment I am only shooting 9mm, I have noticed that a reduction of col of 1.3mm gives almost 70fps more velocity. This, if applied to hot loaded rounds will probably result in overpressure. Be wary.

Luke

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
In my opinion, you'd be better off with the Gold Dots, anyway. Corbon is nothing more than marketing and hype and not to mention, over priced.
Thanks. I have a box of 185 grains, Should I go with 230? That way I don't have to go with +p to get some decent numbers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Powder degradation is a topic of great consternation... The following is my opinion, and should be treated as such. I don't believe there is any reason to worry about the breakdown of granules/flakes into smaller pieces, I have tumbled loaded rounds in a rotary tumbler for 8 hours and there was no difference in the chronographed velocities produced. A trip along any road(here in south africa more so than in the us) will result in much more vibration than chambering and rechambering a round, so will walking/jogging, driving in you car or taking a train. There *may* be some danger of the conflagration retardants coating propellents rubbing of with long exposure in a vibratory tumbler, especially if the load is only filling a small percentage of case volume. But again, the amount of rubbing cycles generated by rechambering your top two rounds is not imo high enough to cause any problems.

Setback is real and col does effect chamber pressure. If you are using rounds that are +p or +p+ you should carefully monitor your overall length, at the moment I am only shooting 9mm, I have noticed that a reduction of col of 1.3mm gives almost 70fps more velocity. This, if applied to hot loaded rounds will probably result in overpressure. Be wary.

Luke

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I just am learning of this powder degradation from this thread. I never thought that could happen. All my carry load ammo comes from Midway USA and wouldn't shipping that to my house cause powder degredation?
 

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I just am learning of this powder degradation from this thread. I never thought that could happen. All my carry load ammo comes from Midway USA and wouldn't shipping that to my house cause powder degredation?
nope, unless you live somewhere high in the andes, where the only way to and from your home is over 3000km of extremely rocky single track, covered by a bicycle with no shock absorbtion. Even if that were the case, I still highly doubt that there would be any problems. A friend carried a bunch of .38 ammo on his ktm for a 900km offroad trip through the mountains, and guess what, no difference :)

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Interesting stuff. I have never used snap caps, so the idea is to practice dry runs with these snap caps? How do they work? Do they make any noise? Where is the best place to get them for my USP 9.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Interesting stuff. I have never used snap caps, so the idea is to practice dry runs with these snap caps? How do they work? Do they make any noise? Where is the best place to get them for my USP 9.
midwayUSA.com or cheaperthandirt.com or I even got some off of Amazon.com

I use snap caps because my grandfather is from the old school and told me I can break the gun by dry firing it. And I also like to practice more than just trigger control. It may sound stupid but I practice my press check ALOT. Last thing I need is inconsistency in doing a press check with a loaded gun, next thing you know my finger slips into the trigger guard and then a possible BOOM may occur.
 
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