[GermanGunWorks]

A few hours ago, HK won in front of the Court in Koblenz against the German Secretary of Defence Ursula von der Leyen!

Court said - The HK G36 is a user friendly and reliable weapon. Experienced users demand the issues with the rifle.
HK should now be able to get claims of damage against the German Ministry of Defence.

But most important - The name of this great rifle has been washed clean again!

 

[Player_To_Be_Named...]

Awesome news

 

[sweersa]

Sweet! Now most of us can say to the haters: "I told you so!" :biggrin:

 

[Saab95v6]

Great now, hopefully more get shipped to US in a Semi version for the aficionados !!!

 

[fargo007]

Does anyone have a link to the actual decision?

As much as I would like to hope otherwise, I suspect the court sided with HK only on the claim that the contract didn't specify an accuracy standard.

 

[MOS95B]

I don't think the opinion has been published yet. This site appears to be the place to look. mjv.rlp.de | Rechtsprechung

Deutsche Welle story Germany military loses legal battle with Heckler & Koch | News | DW.COM | 02.09.2016

 

[fargo007]

Thanks.


"The court in the city of Koblenz rejected the government's call for the army to be compensated for the 3,845 rifles it ordered in two contracts dating back to 2013. The court ruled that Heckler & Koch had not reneged on what was promised in the agreement and that the military had failed to list its demands for the weapon to the gun maker."


What this is saying is that HK won this decision because they gave Germany what it asked for: There was no contractual accuracy standard, so the rifle's inability to perform isn't a breach of contract.

It does not in any way hold or suggest that the problem doesn't exist or challenge the conclusions of the scientific testing.

 

[AGG]

Wunderbar!!! :biggrin:

Tony

 

[Tam4511]

Thanks.


"The court in the city of Koblenz rejected the government's call for the army to be compensated for the 3,845 rifles it ordered in two contracts dating back to 2013. The court ruled that Heckler & Koch had not reneged on what was promised in the agreement and that the military had failed to list its demands for the weapon to the gun maker."


What this is saying is that HK won this decision because they gave Germany what it asked for: There was no contractual accuracy standard, so the rifle's inability to perform isn't a breach of contract.

It does not in any way hold or suggest that the problem doesn't exist or challenge the conclusions of the scientific testing.

Interesting, seems similar to the eotech suit in the US. Except they lost spectacularly lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[Steve_in_29]

Thanks.


"The court in the city of Koblenz rejected the government's call for the army to be compensated for the 3,845 rifles it ordered in two contracts dating back to 2013. The court ruled that Heckler & Koch had not reneged on what was promised in the agreement and that the military had failed to list its demands for the weapon to the gun maker."


What this is saying is that HK won this decision because they gave Germany what it asked for: There was no contractual accuracy standard, so the rifle's inability to perform isn't a breach of contract.

It does not in any way hold or suggest that the problem doesn't exist or challenge the conclusions of the scientific testing.

^^^^ This

The Court didn't state there were no problems with the rifles, ONLY that there was no contractual obligation for HK to provide weapons that were accurate as the German Military "ass-u-me-d" that such didn't need to be specified in the contract.

This is no different then when a criminal who was caught in the act gets off in court over a technicality....he STILL committed the crime, just couldn't be convicted of it.

 

[Lenkers]

The court ruled that the G36 meets the technical delivery terms. That is all.

 

[RegularGuy461969]

The court ruled that the G36 meets the technical delivery terms. That is all.

Which is all they needed to do. Just as my vendors are liable only for what they contractually agreed. Which I'm not sure they really know to what they agreed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Oicani]

Great now, hopefully more get shipped to US in a Semi version for the aficionados !!!

Plus 1 on that statement!

... and to add. I don't "us" as community of gun people. We bitch and moan that HK doesn't release new and innovative products. When they do, we then do our very best to discredit it. Especially in this situation where there are key players within the German government who have a personal agenda to close down HK by restricting their revenue steam. Anyhow, every platform has it's limitations and if you still believe the G36 will melt like a ice cube on a hot city street, than that's a shame.

 

[Lenkers]

Which is all they needed to do. Just as my vendors are liable only for what they contractually agreed. Which I'm not sure they really know to what they agreed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Some people here are lead to believe that the court declared the G36 to be a good rifle. But that's just not what happened.

 

[MOS95B]

Ouch. Defense lawyer responds briefly. That technicality is usually a Constitutional safeguard which serves to protect us all. Plenty of people are convicted on technical violations of the law. At the end of the day, there is only legal and illegal. As for the criminal getting off - probably been jailed, crime enterprise broken up, had to pay a defense lawyer, and dealt with pre-trial restrictions on liberty. Then of course, there are the civil forfeiture actions too.

HK performed to the contract. If there were explicit or implied warranties otherwise, they still prevailed.

 

[samnev]

^^^^ This

The Court didn't state there were no problems with the rifles, ONLY that there was no contractual obligation for HK to provide weapons that were accurate as the German Military "ass-u-me-d" that such didn't need to be specified in the contract.

This is no different then when a criminal who was caught in the act gets off in court over a technicality....he STILL committed the crime, just couldn't be convicted of it.

That would be my take on the decision as well.

 

[SudS]

And there is no definition of what is a "good" rifle, except in this case, the court did not rule it was a "bad" rifle. We could go on and on about the good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

[fargo007]

Some people here are lead to believe that the court declared the G36 to be a good rifle. But that's just not what happened.

Yup. The bottom line is that even with a very serious and scientifically demonstrable accuracy problem, the rifle still met the terms of the contract.


"The court in the city of Koblenz rejected the government's call for the army to be compensated for the 3,845 rifles it ordered in two contracts dating back to 2013. "


It looks like this suit was actually defensive in nature by HK, so this may have actually been a counter claim against the government. I'm not sure their civil legal system operates the same way ours does. So when it's said "HK Sued the German Government" it might actually mean "Countersued."

If that's the case, it changes my opinion of this from a pyrrhic victory to a substantial one, gained in a fight they didn't ask to be in.

The 416 is on a winning streak with the France deal, so hopefully that picks up even more. That's the gun HK probably wants to build anyway.

 

[Steve_in_29]

Yup. The bottom line is that even with a very serious and scientifically demonstrable accuracy problem, the rifle still met the terms of the contract.


"The court in the city of Koblenz rejected the government's call for the army to be compensated for the 3,845 rifles it ordered in two contracts dating back to 2013. "


It looks like this suit was actually defensive in nature by HK, so this may have actually been a counter claim against the government. I'm not sure their civil legal system operates the same way ours does. So when it's said "HK Sued the German Government" it might actually mean "Countersued."

If that's the case, it changes my opinion of this from a pyrrhic victory to a substantial one, gained in a fight they didn't ask to be in.

The 416 is on a winning streak with the France deal, so hopefully that picks up even more. That's the gun HK probably wants to build anyway.

All that supposed superior German engineering prowess on tap and yet all HK can come up with for a rifle is a clone of an AR. And not even a new type of AR clone but one that was already done successfully by several other companies before HK copied it.

 

[Steve_in_29]

Ouch. Defense lawyer responds briefly. That technicality is usually a Constitutional safeguard which serves to protect us all. Plenty of people are convicted on technical violations of the law. At the end of the day, there is only legal and illegal. As for the criminal getting off - probably been jailed, crime enterprise broken up, had to pay a defense lawyer, and dealt with pre-trial restrictions on liberty. Then of course, there are the civil forfeiture actions too.

HK performed to the contract. If there were explicit or implied warranties otherwise, they still prevailed.

Constitutional safeguards or not the fact remains the criminal, while not found guilty, STILL actually committed the crime he was charged with.

And yes HK preformed to the contract (which is NOT the same thing as saying they made a "good" rifle) as the Military was too naive to think they had to actually lay out in the contract that the rifles be accurate and specify exactly how accurate they expected them to be.