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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Gentlemen,

I have been thinking about pulling the trigger on a 21 for a long time now. However, I am just a tad bit confused as to all of the offerings, advantages, disadvantages, etc. with the various companies pushing thier own conversions versus the real HK21E. For example, if you talked to Ralph at RDTS he will push his HK21EUG over Mike's HK21 TSC. I am sure Mike at TSC would do the same thing as Ralph at RDTS. As far as a real HK21E with a push pin reciever, I dont know anyone that owns one so I cant speak for them. I guess the question(s) I have is what one is better? Or all they all good? Does it really matter if it is original HK21E? Especially for parts (Barrels, trigger pack etc)? I would love to hear from members who own Mike's HK21TSC and/or Ralph's HK21 EUG to hear thoughts from each camp. Also, I would love to hear from original HK21E owners to see if all the hype over purchasing the less costly HK21EUG or HK21 TSC is worth it or should I just do as my father always said "Save your pennies" for the original HK21E.

THoughts and comments? One more thing, I have looked with little luck - who sells real hk21e parts kit complete? (At least I could buy the parts kit and sit on it for a while....till the rest comes in...)

thanks again,
Conrad:59:
 

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21s

I have a RDTS 21 EUG. I am considering a 21E. The only way to built a factory accurate HK21E that is fully transferrable is to get a new demilled 21E and the mate it with a G3 registered receiver with a swing down lower. I realize that the factory 21 & 21E don't have a swing down lower, but at this time, this is the only method that ATF has accepted to convert a transferrable G3 into a HK21E even though the final product has a clip on lower (21s, 21Es, and G(not HK)41s do not have push pin lowers. I know it doesn't make sense. I am fairly sure Ralph Simth and Dan Shea are corresponding with ATF about this. I am concerned as I have the "other" HK machine gun with a clip on lower, a G41. I want to be able to use the factory machine gun lower on my G41 as I would on a HK21E. I don't understand going through all of the crap and expense of building a registered receiver 21 or 21E and retaining the push pins that don't belong there to start with. Building a transferrable HK21E is an expensive proposition: $12.5 to $14K for a 21E post 86 sample to cut up, A G3 Registered receiver push pin gun $11K to $14.5K, and the cut and demill charge, labor to put it all back together correctly and get the paper changed ro read HK21E. My guess is that I would have to budget $30to$35K to do it so it would be virtually impossible to tell from a factory piece. Its at least $10K more than a HK21 sear gun. It's probably at least $5K more than a HK 21E sear gun. So what do you get for the extra$$$$?. Well, a cooler gun, what else. You become a Member in a very exclusive level of a very exclusive club. If you are luckey enough you will get a late sample that has the rails on it. Even if it doesn't it will have the longer shrouds that make the barrel look shorter (which I don't think any one has successfully knocked off yet). The great thing (in my opinion) that you get is the 21E feed mech. It (and the 21A) feed mech is the clam shell style, in that it opens from the bottom and makes starting the belt easier. The 21A mech opens up from the bottom but it only feeds in one direction. This is sort of inbetween 21 and a 21E. The 21E feed mech also advances the belt better. I think (not exactly sure) that it moves the belt with the forward and rearward movement of the carrier. Disadvantages: 1) Barrels are hard to find. One of the things that make 21s and 21Es world class machineguns is their quick change barrels. Not worth much if you can't get any more. I realize that some builders are modifying 21 barrels to fit 21Es. But that makes them more expensive. If you decide to do a 21E, you and your class II will need to discuss whether or not is is ok to keep the 21E barrel itself. I don't want to open that can of worms, lets just say there are lots of opinions and intrepretations, take the reccomendation of the person who also has his ass on the line next to yours. Parts for the 21E are harder to find and therefore more expensive. A minor point: later 21Es only work with disintegrting links like a M60. RDTS modified my 21 feed mech fo it will do both. Which would I rather have? Well a 21E of course. Its like would you want a F360 or a F430 Ferrari? A F575M or a 599GTB? None of them are slummin' But as A.J Foyt's wife once said, "Speed cost's money, how fast do you want to go?" Look and ask. For this kind of money it might be worth a flight to Phoenix in December for the SAR show. If you do, email me and you can burn a belt in mine!!!
 

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just so others know

the Hk21 and Hk21E are two diff Guns with Diff parts
and only a few parts swap with ea other.
BIPODS
FORWARD GRIPS
REAR SIGHTS
BUTTSTOCKS/buffers (only if you gun is set up for this part)
some trigger parts

you go to the web sites and the guns posted are based on the 1960's
Hk21. (with looks of a Hk21E) with mods done to them. to look like a 21E

a guy not to long ago. cut up a few HkG3K's for the parts.
insted of taking the parts off of the post recvr..and then selling the recvr.
thats to bad... things like this happen guns a few years old getting chopped up to get a few parts off of.. but i gess if the guns sell at $750 ea and you get $1200 for the parts thats ok..lol.

most of the time you cant stick with one belt fed..(I CANT!)
so do what most of us do... get a good Hk21 to start with. this will get you started. it will do every thing you want a beltfed to do...(as long as it's not a hack job) get one with a good name on it
RDTS
TSC
ORF
MM
Vollmers(not made any more even they hacked parts)
are some. then you have a few guys who have done them
and they are fantastic looking(with real parts) and run also...

BUT!! i would stick with a name and a rep... this pays off in the end! the list above is some of the top names who have done fantastic jobs on the Hk21!

REAL
parts are drying up.. and soon all you will have is look alikes.
now is the time to get one..every year that passes..makes it hard to get one at a good price..but hell it's only money..
so fork out the 8 to 10 K for a good gun...
as you will pay this in ammo after you get a good gun!
open some books.(and read). go to the Diff Sites.. read up on what your getting.. so you know how to fix small probs with the Guns..you should never have to send a Hk21 back to a maker for anything short of gun falling apart!
this falls under. get one with a good name.

FUN FACTS
1.they dont kick all that hard
remember this is a 17lb 308 beltfed
that runs at 950rds a min. the gun will move!(wussys)
2.on semi auto it is a tack driver.(better then most bolt guns)
3.full auto..see point 1(this will be your cone of fire)
4.you will want to get lots of 308 right now it's $350 a case
stock up!!!
5. Hand cleaner. put some in your shooting bag!
as you will never link as much ammo as you think you will need that day!!!
 

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I agree with Dukes fun facts 100% !!
 

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I owned a Vollmer 21 and to be quite honest, the H&K 21 series sucks as a weapons system. IMHO, spend a few more dollars and buy an M60 in the E3 or E4 series. It is much easier to shoot, doesn't eat ammo at the rate of 950-1000 rpm., and even with the design problems of the M60s, it is a better weapon system.
 

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I have fired a Vollmer 21 and must agree, at least on it, with StG 77 5,56.
It was uncontrollable and simply useless. It was either a 21 or 21A, NOT an E.
I feel the E guns, with their vastly improved recoil system, are much better.
 

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Duke is right on the money. Plugged all the holes I left. If you get a 21 sear gun, you would save enough to buy spares, tripod, Dillon reloader, belts, belt loader etc. There are good 21 barrels out there for $450.00. Robert Johnson has reusable belts, loaders and tripods. Adam Weber has new replacement moving parts. To add a little to what Duke said, learn what the differences are between a 21 & a 21E. You don't want to be spending big dollars for spare barrels, bolt heads, carriers, feed mechs, etc only to find out they are the wrong parts. Any of the mentioned builders should be able to show you the differences. Even some of the parts that interchange were originally specific to one model or the other (bipods, sights,).

STG 77 does a nice job of playing the Devil's Advocate. The 21 is kind of a beast when compared to some others. Its pretty light. Shoot a G3 and then a Heavy Barrel FN and you'll think the G3 is beating the crap out of you. Thats because it's lighter. If there isn't a place near that you can shoot a 21 near you, see if you can shoot a G3 with 40 round mag or a 50 round drum. (If this is your first beltfed, make sure you have a place to shoot it. Some ranges that allow full auto don't allow belt feds) Its got a lot more recoil than "in the movies" when they are shooting blanks. If you only weigh 150 lbs., it's going to get old soon. There's no adapter (someone correct me if I'm wrong) made to attatch a 21 or 21E to tripod (like a 1919) that let's you quickly swivel it all around like Hollywood. RDTS makes a beautiful adapter set to attach to MG42 tripod but that is for "sustained heavy fire". It does absorb the recoil but once you set up, you are limited to horizontal movement within a limited range until you adjust the settings. There are a lot more M60s, MG34s, MG42s, and .30 Brownings out there and therefore more parts, accessories, and PEOPLE who who have a lot of experience with them. It's kind of like do you chose an IBM compatible (or whatever they call it these days, or an Apple. There are tens of thousands of guy ( and women) who have experience with the M60. But I also understand that sometimes only an HK will do, thats why I have a HK instead of a M60. Now if I could get a MAG 58, it would be a whole 'nuther story. But that's just my opinion.
My advice is: !.) Be sure what you want before you start so you don't spend your money twice. 2.) Buy from someone who has an investment in YOUR satisfaction (his reputation) and 3.) Get moving, it's getting more expensive every day!!!!!!
 

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I owned a Vollmer 21 and to be quite honest, the H&K 21 series sucks as a weapons system. IMHO, spend a few more dollars and buy an M60 in the E3 or E4 series. It is much easier to shoot, doesn't eat ammo at the rate of 950-1000 rpm., and even with the design problems of the M60s, it is a better weapon system.
this is how a few gents see it..But the truth is

i have had a M60 also (bullet hose) and the grip is for a small hand!
slow and sloppy!!! dat dat dat dat!!! IT'S A YUGO

with the upgrades to the 21E #17locking piece
and 21E buffer sytm the Hk21 is a Joy to shoot
(Vollmers never had the locking piece)
i also have a Vollmers 21
and a cone of fire is what all full auto's have
the big diff you will Never get with all the rest is the tack driving pin point
target killing the Hk21 offers...and it's light wt.
the only M60 to get close is the M60E4
BUT thats only the wt..and feel..but thats a diff weapon from the old M60
and thats a Gas gun anyway and Not a Hk
and at 6'4" and 300lbs it kicks like all the rest of my 308's

the best part is watching others try to shoot it...
for the first time

ov glove..whats that?
 

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Okay I will add my 2 cents. I own a ORF built 21A using a factory HK parts kit. The upgrades on the gun is the bolt carrrier was drilled out to accomodate the 21 E recoil rod and spring, forward assist, 21 E buffer and clubfoot stock. with the heavy buffer system and recoil rod (triple wound recoil spring) the rifle is as smooth as mercedes. Not much recoil, on full auto you will not feel your fillings being jarred loose in your mouth. The rilfe hums along like a little sewing machine at around 1,000 round per minute.

I would say all of the platforms from ORF, TSC, and RDTS will get you a nice beltfed. If you can buy a post sample 21 E and have it demilled and then get a RR G3, you can built a very nice replica of a 21E. The only difference I can think of is that the 21E receiver was slightly longer than a G3 receiver.

Happy shooting...I wouldn't go the M60 route.....
 

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how about a page for the Hk21 Guys.
this would be some thing we could use.
 

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I would LOVE to see a Class III or full-auto page on this site. It's my specific interest and I wouldn't have to wade through a bunch of rifle posts to see the stuff I am interested in. "Long gun talk" is just too broad a topic.

YMMV

Oh, and the "ov glove" referred to is the asbestos one needed to change hot barrels on the 60, I believe.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I will agree on the NFA message board. I would love to not have to sift through the long gun talk to find NFA related discussions on HK guns. I dont know how you would title it, but I think having an HK NFA section is appropriate in that there are many members who belong to the NFA club and wish to discuss various issues/topics related to HK NFA weapons.

My 2 cents.
thanks
Conrad
 

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Last night I got to see a brand new HK21E dealer sample up close at RDTS. SWEET!!! I've got that "Some how, Some way" thing going on in my head. There are a bunch of of little detail differences between the 21 & 21E that I didn't notice in pictures. The most suprising thing is that it doesn't say HK21E on the body of the gun anywhere. Its on the carrier which you can see through the ejection port, the feed mech, and the barrel. We are assuming that HK does this so that they don't have to change the markings to use for a 21E and a 23E. Damn, I thought I was done lusting after Hks I don't have.
 

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The OV Glove

They advertise this on TV as a pot holder and change hot light bulbs. It is a GLOVE (fingers) and not a mit, so it is easier to handle hot stuff. It is made of Kevlar and Asbestos. Really helps when brain fade strikes and you think that suppressor is cool enough. Here in Arizona, anything metal gets hot and stays hot for a long time. The best thing was I found them at my local Walgreens for $15.00. Oh, and they don't have flowers or any other "unmanly" stuff on them. Just that woven off white Nomex look like a driving suit under layer. Brian
 

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They advertise this on TV as a pot holder and change hot light bulbs. It is a GLOVE (fingers) and not a mit, so it is easier to handle hot stuff. It is made of Kevlar and Asbestos. Really helps when brain fade strikes and you think that suppressor is cool enough. Here in Arizona, anything metal gets hot and stays hot for a long time. The best thing was I found them at my local Walgreens for $15.00. Oh, and they don't have flowers or any other "unmanly" stuff on them. Just that woven off white Nomex look like a driving suit under layer. Brian
(they say ya dont need one)
but after a 200rd dump.. then even the latch on the Hk21bbl is a bit hot to hold on to. i use a pump spray jug with 4 gals of water set on a low mist...WD40 at the end

a page set up for beltfed Hk's a even fullauto's a page with the two would be nice..even a sticky with info on the 21 for the guy's looking
 

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I like BIGDUKE60's idea of a HK beltfed only forum. A NFA forum in addition to that would be even better.
 

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who would we ask. about adding a Forum for Hk beltguns and or a fullauto forum.

we could do a sticky with photos?
with the basics and of what type.

this way alot of the guys who would like to know. what others are doing.
to upgrade or tweek ..or just for the info on whats what..
this way we could get rid of a few myths (spelling)
 
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