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Discussion Starter #1
So I'm consolidating some guns, and simplifying my systems. I was talking about my plans with a buddy of mine who is in the Gaurd, and he was telling me about the "new" SOF Recce rifles. From what I've heard, it's an HK416, with either a Geissele or Remington rail, and it sports a Vortex Razor HD II 1-6 riding in a Geissele Super Precision (read: expensive) Mount. I did a quick Google image search, but can't find any decent, or at least accurate pictures of this new SOF Recce rifle configuration.

My goal, as I said before, is to pair down my systems, and simplify them. My thinking, is that a 16" barrel AR, with a quality 1-6 scope, is extremely versatile for most "tactical" shooting situations. It's precise enough to engage targets out to say, 300 yards/meters, but compact enough to clear rooms, or work in and around vehicles. There's no one rifle, that can do all things equally well, but a 5.56 AR, with a high quality barrel, and optic, can do most things pretty well, and for my needs, it is the perfect rifle.

I've always wanted to have a clone build, so, if I'm going that route, my thought is, why not build a clone of this new SOF Recce rifle? Here's what I'm thinking as far as parts/components:

  • HK MR556,
  • Vortex Razor HD II 1-6
  • Geiseele Rail

What else is "standard" equipment though? What are the details that will make it a true "clone" rifle? Which weapon light? What type of backup sights? Vertical grips? The lack of photos of issued Recce rifles doesn't help much, but I'd figure why not ask the preeminent HK experts? Y'all probably know. Some pretty similar rifles have been featured in the BCM Gunfighter video series, specifically the videos featuring the instructors from Northern Red. I did capture some screenshots from that video. Anybody recognize what kind of offset mount they use for the Aimpoint?

Let me know what you think, I appreciate it.

Screenshot (3).png Screenshot (5).png Screenshot (6).png Screenshot (7).png Screenshot (9).png
 

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http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk...riants-photo-discussion-cloning-thread-5.html

If I was cloning I'd look at reprofiling the barrel and putting the correct muzzle device on, a suppressor to go with said muzzle device, PEQ15, some form of Surefire scout light, back up sights if used at all are probably of the KAC variety, ditch the bulky HK stock for something like a Magpul CTR or even a Colt N1, good two point sling like the VCAS is likely, vertical grips are a crap shoot, and probably a harris bipod.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/attachments/hk416-hk417-hq/71986d1478872105-hk416-action-rnlfzck.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #3
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk...riants-photo-discussion-cloning-thread-5.html

If I was cloning I'd look at reprofiling the barrel and putting the correct muzzle device on, a suppressor to go with said muzzle device, PEQ15, some form of Surefire scout light, back up sights if used at all are probably of the KAC variety, ditch the bulky HK stock for something like a Magpul CTR or even a Colt N1, good two point sling like the VCAS is likely, vertical grips are a crap shoot, and probably a harris bipod.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/attachments/hk416-hk417-hq/71986d1478872105-hk416-action-rnlfzck.jpg
Thanks man. Why do you think they would forgo backup iron sights, and go with an offset red dot? With the Vortex, the Aimpoint, and the ATPIAL, they have 3 sighting systems already. My thinking was that, with the way the scope is mounted, flip up irons aren't really an option, as you need a tool to remove the scope when it's mounted in the Geiseele rig. Plus, the red dot works in all lighting conditions, and awkward shooting positions. That's my 2 cents, what say you?
 

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A 16" MR barrel will be accurate out to 600+ yards. I bet to 800trds in the right hands.

My 10.4" 416 AF barrel is dead on at 300yrds no problem. I use an Elcan SpectreDR 1-4x on it.

As for BUIS, my HK BUIS are a PITA with scopes, both the fixed diopter and Norwegian Flip-ups.

I cannot set the scope(s) to the correct eye relief with BUIS. I've tried my Elcan and Eotech system, no go. I thought of mounting the rear BUIS in front of the optic and moving rearward if ever needed as my scopes have quick detach mounts. But my eyes are crap (trifocals) so using BUIS is Close to a nonstarter.

Post pics when completed!!! I hope your wallet survives the endeavor;-)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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My thinking was that, with the way the scope is mounted, flip up irons aren't really an option, as you need a tool to remove the scope when it's mounted in the Geiseele rig. Plus, the red dot works in all lighting conditions, and awkward shooting positions. That's my 2 cents, what say you?
I don't see a lot of offset red dots like Northern Red has, the micro red dot on top of a Night Force seems more common. In regards to forgoing irons it comes down to 1) the reliability of modern optics 2) inability to quickly remove a scope without a QD mount 3)inability to get the scope off and optics up in a quick enough manner to engage a threat 4) prevalence of combat at night (using PEQs and NOD's) 5) choosing to sacrifice BUIS in order to optimally mount the scope, PEQ, and light.

If you're going to clone, go after it. No lack of functionality in a clone.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
A 16" MR barrel will be accurate out to 600+ yards. I bet to 800trds in the right hands.

My 10.4" 416 AF barrel is dead on at 300yrds no problem. I use an Elcan SpectreDR 1-4x on it.

As for BUIS, my HK BUIS are a PITA with scopes, both the fixed diopter and Norwegian Flip-ups.

I cannot set the scope(s) to the correct eye relief with BUIS. I've tried my Elcan and Eotech system, no go. I thought of mounting the rear BUIS in front of the optic and moving rearward if ever needed as my scopes have quick detach mounts. But my eyes are crap (trifocals) so using BUIS is Close to a nonstarter.

Post pics when completed!!! I hope your wallet survives the endeavor;-)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nice, good to hear range reports. I understand the allure of the 416/MR556, but is it really that much better of a system than a high quality DI AR15? Better is very subjective, I know, but in terms of practical accuracy, reliability and handling, is it worth the price of admission?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I don't see a lot of offset red dots like Northern Red has, the micro red dot on top of a Night Force seems more common. In regards to forgoing irons it comes down to 1) the reliability of modern optics 2) inability to quickly remove a scope without a QD mount 3)inability to get the scope off and optics up in a quick enough manner to engage a threat 4) prevalence of combat at night (using PEQs and NOD's) 5) choosing to sacrifice BUIS in order to optimally mount the scope, PEQ, and light.

If you're going to clone, go after it. No lack of functionality in a clone.
Modern optics are extremely reliable, but they are man made electronics; they can (and do) break. I think though, if there is a significant enough amount of force, to break the Vortex, and the Aimpoint, and ATPIAL, that you're probably dead yourself, or your rifle is totally broken, and you're already drawing or have drawn your pistol as a last ditch effort to save your life. Irons are "always on" but they do have their limitations. With those three sighting systems though, you have triple redundancy. I don't have a need to run an IR laser (I don't own, or use NODs, but I want to), so maybe irons wouldn't be a bad tertiary back up. Perhaps flip up offsets that cowitness with the Aimpoint.

My concern with an offset reddot, is that it's gonna get hit all the time, as it protrudes out from the gun the farthest of any of the furniture/accessories. My thinking is that it's gonna take a lot of hits, and being that I'm a civilian, I can't just go to the Armorer or Quartermaster, and get a new one off the shelf, I have to visit my wallet first, and with an Aimpoint T-1 running $650 on average, that's not a inexpensive "oops, I broke it." However, I don't do High Speed stuff, I'm just a regular guy, and would be mindful that I have a multi-hundred dollar sight hanging off my gun. It is really cool though...
 

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Nice, good to hear range reports. I understand the allure of the 416/MR556, but is it really that much better of a system than a high quality DI AR15? Better is very subjective, I know, but in terms of practical accuracy, reliability and handling, is it worth the price of admission?
I've owned DI guns before but I'll never own one again. The reliability and ease of cleaning the piston gun is just not there with DI in IMHO.
 

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Modern optics are extremely reliable, but they are man made electronics; they can (and do) break. I think though, if there is a significant enough amount of force, to break the Vortex, and the Aimpoint, and ATPIAL, that you're probably dead yourself, or your rifle is totally broken, and you're already drawing or have drawn your pistol as a last ditch effort to save your life. Irons are "always on" but they do have their limitations. With those three sighting systems though, you have triple redundancy. I don't have a need to run an IR laser (I don't own, or use NODs, but I want to), so maybe irons wouldn't be a bad tertiary back up. Perhaps flip up offsets that cowitness with the Aimpoint.

My concern with an offset reddot, is that it's gonna get hit all the time, as it protrudes out from the gun the farthest of any of the furniture/accessories. My thinking is that it's gonna take a lot of hits, and being that I'm a civilian, I can't just go to the Armorer or Quartermaster, and get a new one off the shelf, I have to visit my wallet first, and with an Aimpoint T-1 running $650 on average, that's not a inexpensive "oops, I broke it." However, I don't do High Speed stuff, I'm just a regular guy, and would be mindful that I have a multi-hundred dollar sight hanging off my gun. It is really cool though...
A throw lever/cat tail and knowing how to use that 1-6x optic on 1x will eliminate the need for a T1. If I was building this clone I wouldn even think of putting an offset red dot on it. Also saves you $650 plus whatever the mount costs.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
A throw lever/cat tail and knowing how to use that 1-6x optic on 1x will eliminate the need for a T1. If I was building this clone I wouldn even think of putting an offset red dot on it. Also saves you $650 plus whatever the mount costs.
Very true, well said.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I've owned DI guns before but I'll never own one again. The reliability and ease of cleaning the piston gun is just not there with DI in IMHO.
What's part availability like for MR556/416? I'm speaking in terms of the piston parts, and HK proprietary pieces on the rifle. I doubt I'd ever put enough rounds through it to wear them out, but I'm curious none the less. Does HK have maintenance suggestions as far as parts replacements at certain round counts? Or is it more along the lines of, if it fails, replace it?
 

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What's part availability like for MR556/416? I'm speaking in terms of the piston parts, and HK proprietary pieces on the rifle. I doubt I'd ever put enough rounds through it to wear them out, but I'm curious none the less. Does HK have maintenance suggestions as far as parts replacements at certain round counts? Or is it more along the lines of, if it fails, replace it?
Parts availability is going to basically be dependent on what HKparts.net has in stock or what you can find on gunbroker, etc.

recommended reading:

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/158794-what-include-spare-parts-kit-mr556.html

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk...arts-vs-di-compatibility-update-post-7-a.html

Canipe Correspondence - Geissele Automatics: Improving the HK416 - Soldier Systems Daily

Canipe Correspondence - Retiring My 416 - Soldier Systems Daily

Using Low Power Variable Optics:

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/06/gunfighter-moment-kyle-defoor-11/

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/09/10/gunfighter-moment-kyle-defoor-12/
 

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I've owned DI guns before but I'll never own one again. The reliability and ease of cleaning the piston gun is just not there with DI in IMHO.
As someone who has used both the 416's and DI's professionally, that reliability claim is just plain false. The determining factor is more the quality of the parts/build and the knowledge of the end-user.
 

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As someone who has used both the 416's and DI's professionally, that reliability claim is just plain false. The determining factor is more the quality of the parts/build and the knowledge of the end-user.
I respect your opinion as I've never fired any weapon to failure and am not nor ever been a professional in this realm.

I just remember how bloody awefull it was to clean the blowback out of my old Colt AR15 (vintage 1990) receivers versus the mere wipe down required to clean the 556/416 receivers. And my AR15 would start to experience feed issues and bolt hesitation after about 500 rounds without a scrubbing, whereas my 556/416 hybrid shoots over 1200 rounds without any issues and no cleaning. And when I do clean her, it takes minimal cpl and a paper towel to shine her right up. Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit OCD so most times I clean the devil out of her as I do with all my firearms.

As a result of this and from anecdotal evidence, I think it reasonable to expect a piston gun to run longer in severe adverse conditions, of course one made with quality parts IMHO.

But as I said, you've lived it and I haven't it!

Have a great Thanksgiving!
 

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Perhaps a maintenance error. DI is like a woman....dirty and wet always beats clean and dry. True, 416 will hold lube on the bolt far longer, but 1k of general training fire is easy for a good DI with proper/sufficient lube...short of mag dumps/break contact. A quality setup, maintained properly will get the job done save for a few rare exceptions (barrels less than 12", auto fire in conjunction with suppressor and/or sbr) but the op is looking for a gen purpose/recce style rig.
 

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This is what I did so far.

The gun already has and first and a second place wins in RECCE and DMR class (out to 700Y). I would say figure out what you want it to accomplish before you start hanging all kinds of cool looking, but ultimately useless stuff off it. It's easy to do more harm than good when you start bolting things on.

The only other things I use on this gun that aren't depicted are a light, and a suppressor.



I cross decked a scope and ran it in the DMR class too.

 

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This is what I did so far.

The gun already has and first and a second place wins in RECCE and DMR class (out to 700Y). I would say figure out what you want it to accomplish before you start hanging all kinds of cool looking, but ultimately useless stuff off it. It's easy to do more harm than good when you start bolting things on.

The only other things I use on this gun that aren't depicted are a light, and a suppressor.



I cross decked a scope and ran it in the DMR class too.

Nice rig!

I got caught up in the expensive and silly game of "bolting **** on my rifle that I don't need" with my first AR. The more I think about it, and talk with my buddies, the theme of "keep it simple" and "less is more", is very prevalent. I'm thinking of going with a 5.56 Trijicon VCOG for my main optic, with a QD mount, and flip up BUIS as a secondary sight system. I have no need for a laser (no NODs for me), and the offset red dot concept is cool, but expensive, and unnecessary for my uses. Mount a Surefire X300 Ultra at the 12 o'clock on the rail (Vickers style), a sling, and I'm GTG.

After doing my own research, I like the idea of an MR556, but the cost of admission is pretty steep. I know HK is quality, but so are a lot of other manufacturers.

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.
 

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The navy SMU recces I've seen are 14.5 HK416's with NF 2.5-10x24 in NF unimounts. Usually with a wilcox mrds adapter to replace one of the ring caps for a doctor sight.
 
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