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Hey guys,

I had someone at work as me about these today, and while I'm pretty knowledgeable about HK pistols, I don't know much about the MP5 builds.

He linked me to the MP5 parts kit with select fire trigger group that appears to include everything except the receiver.

Example: https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=887&idcategory=86#details

HKPARTS also sells receiver flats and bending jigs. My coworker is assuming that this means he can build a complete, full-auto MP5, with no paperwork. Not that he is looking to do this or break any laws... just commenting that it seems like it's "too easy".

Surely he's missing something here, right?
 

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Yes, he is missing a lot.

Building a semi is not easy.

An individual building a full auto is a felony
 

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Yes, he is missing a lot.

Building a semi is not easy.

An individual building a full auto is a felony
Yes, he is missing a lot. While in theory the parts may be from a subgun, it's not like changing the brakes on a car. And there are also other guns like a UZI, or Tec 9, Mac 10, that can also he bought a semi-automatic and converted or build from a parts kit . From my understanding through a lot of research on this site, it is extremely hard to get every thing close enough to spec to work right with a 'factory' gun. There is a reason there is only a handful of folks in the US that can attempt to build these firearms. As was stated, it is a felony to make a 'machinegun' and there are a LOT of other guns that would be simpler to understand and operate. Almost any gun can be built/or converted to a machinegun... even a bolt action SMLE.
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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The flats sold to build off a kit are semi-auto "shelf" receivers and not "push pin, swing down" full auto receivers. Building the available combination of parts into a full auto gun -- regardless of your legal status (okay for a SOT holder w/ proper paperwork, serious felony otherwise) -- would be a challenge requiring significant fabrication skills and clear intent. So tell your buddy a machine gun costs (in the MP5 world) about 30k, then encourage him to build a legal, properly Form 1'ed semi auto MP5 SBR -- they are great guns a ton of fun to shoot.
 

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Oh how we all wish building an MP5 was "too easy" what a wonderful world it would be. Granted it's literally not rocket science but there's definitely a lot to pay attention to when building these buggers.
 

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Oh how we all wish building an MP5 was "too easy" what a wonderful world it would be. Granted it's literally not rocket science but there's definitely a lot to pay attention to when building these buggers.
I work on the International Space Station, well technically I work on the ground and design stuff for the ISS, but I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that trying to build a reliable MP5 is more difficult. Rocket scientists are a dime a dozen around here. It's hard as hell to find a good HK smith who can build one.
 

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I've built a handful and they all work, all German clone or mixed. After your first, it's all downhill, I even built one on all junk sw parts pieced together over a year for $700. It's not rocket science.
 

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Here's what I have speculated, either they are somewhat easy to build individually or....its hard to mass produce for some reason. Todd Bailey was gaining momentum and had a good idea to corner the market years ago, but for some reason he ran into serious issues during production, so you have to wonder if it were that easy, why has the clone market had issues in duplicating say the MP5 specifically?
 

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Here's what I have speculated, either they are somewhat easy to build individually or....its hard to mass produce for some reason. Todd Bailey was gaining momentum and had a good idea to corner the market years ago, but for some reason he ran into serious issues during production, so you have to wonder if it were that easy, why has the clone market had issues in duplicating say the MP5 specifically?
I think it has to do with the tolerances required. An HK has higher tolerance requirements than, say, an AK. Since so many of the parts that he was using were being scratch built in the US, rather than from German guns, I think they were simply running into issues with mismatched dimensions (just slightly mismatched). That required a lot of hand fitting and tuning... which I guess he wasn't known for doing much of. Hence the spotty reputation of some of the guns.
 

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Here's what I have speculated, either they are somewhat easy to build individually or....its hard to mass produce for some reason. Todd Bailey was gaining momentum and had a good idea to corner the market years ago, but for some reason he ran into serious issues during production, so you have to wonder if it were that easy, why has the clone market had issues in duplicating say the MP5 specifically?
I think it has to do with the tolerances required. An HK has higher tolerance requirements than, say, an AK. Since so many of the parts that he was using were being scratch built in the US, rather than from German guns, I think they were simply running into issues with mismatched dimensions (just slightly mismatched). That required a lot of hand fitting and tuning... which I guess he wasn't known for doing much of. Hence the spotty reputation of some of the guns.
Tighter tolerances cost more money. Did Todd create the US clone market? Yes he did. Do I appreciate that he did? Yes I do, but I think Todd noticed a market opportunity, not because of a love of roller locked guns. There are those that custom build great guns on this board because they love the roller locked platform. Think of Todd's early guns. There were no flutes in the chambers. Why, because the pistol caliber guns would work without the flutes. Why did he add flutes? Because that is what the market wants. If he was a true roller locked devotee he would have copied the HK flutes from the start. I think RCM has done a much better job replicating HK parts. But they don't make complete guns. Lots of what Todd id was "almost there". But the difference between 99% and 90% cost more like 25% more. Todd's guns were "close enough". This board tends to be made up of real devotees. I would have paid that 25% more. But the average buyer wouldn't. Todd seemed to have that "how to make the most profit" dialed in pretty well. Too bad that he wasn't trying to make the absolute best he could. The Omega line does seem to have a higher quality standard. But I think that with the Southern Asian imports and limited factory guns, they have to. Where as back in the day, it was HK German or Todd's guns. YMMV.

Scott
 

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Tighter tolerances cost more money. Did Todd create the US clone market? Yes he did. Do I appreciate that he did? Yes I do, but I think Todd noticed a market opportunity, not because of a love of roller locked guns. There are those that custom build great guns on this board because they love the roller locked platform. Think of Todd's early guns. There were no flutes in the chambers. Why, because the pistol caliber guns would work without the flutes. Why did he add flutes? Because that is what the market wants. If he was a true roller locked devotee he would have copied the HK flutes from the start. I think RCM has done a much better job replicating HK parts. But they don't make complete guns. Lots of what Todd id was "almost there". But the difference between 99% and 90% cost more like 25% more. Todd's guns were "close enough". This board tends to be made up of real devotees. I would have paid that 25% more. But the average buyer wouldn't. Todd seemed to have that "how to make the most profit" dialed in pretty well. Too bad that he wasn't trying to make the absolute best he could. The Omega line does seem to have a higher quality standard. But I think that with the Southern Asian imports and limited factory guns, they have to. Where as back in the day, it was HK German or Todd's guns. YMMV.

Scott
Rcm made parts for Todd for a lil while, but even some of those had issues.. How much were some of his clones back in the day? Around $1000 right?
 

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Rcm made parts for Todd for a lil while, but even some of those had issues.. How much were some of his clones back in the day? Around $1000 right?
It is true that Todd got RCM to making parts. Those parts were barrels, trunnion, locking pieces, bolts, carriers, and SD suppressors. It is my understanding that at the start Todd gave them specs of what he wanted for those parts. Then they had a "parting of the ways", as what seemed to have happened with most of Todd's subcontractors. RCM did further research and started marketing their parts through a website they set up. The HK parts were "fill in" for the shop, so not all parts were in stock all the time. Eventually RCM and HK Parts worked out an exclusive agreement so HK parts became another job on the shop floor instead of "fill in" work so those parts would be in stock. Recently RCM and HK Parts no long have an exclusive contract. I do see that there are still some RCM marked parts in stock. It is also my understanding that RCM has updated their old website HK Style Parts - Rim Country Manufacturing and you can buy from them directly.

As far as "back in the day" that would be SW started is the late 90's? Sorry but someone else will have to speak to that.

Scott
 

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Yeah I think the general issue is basically what Scott mentions in his posts. At a more fundamental level it's a difficult gig I'm sure. You have HK wingnut fanatics on one side who want everything exactly factory and on the other hand cheap bast$ards who are always looking to squeeze a buck off their purchase of an item they essentially desire to be custom highest quality.

Custom near-factory gun at mass market lowest price. That's what everyone wants and in the HK world that's just a tough deal to make.

My 2 cents.
 

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Hey guys,

I had someone at work as me about these today, and while I'm pretty knowledgeable about HK pistols, I don't know much about the MP5 builds.

He linked me to the MP5 parts kit with select fire trigger group that appears to include everything except the receiver.

Example: https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=887&idcategory=86#details

HKPARTS also sells receiver flats and bending jigs. My coworker is assuming that this means he can build a complete, full-auto MP5, with no paperwork. Not that he is looking to do this or break any laws... just commenting that it seems like it's "too easy".

Surely he's missing something here, right?


"Yes, please reply on how easy it is to build a full auto MP5."
ATF.jpg
 
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