HKPRO Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know many of you have sigs, how does the DAK trigger compare to the LEM triggers? Some say they are great, some hate them....sort of like the LEM. How much heavier does the pull feel and what is the reset like?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,379 Posts
I know many of you have sigs, how does the DAK trigger compare to the LEM triggers? Some say they are great, some hate them....sort of like the LEM. How much heavier does the pull feel and what is the reset like?

I've never fired any HK LEM's. I was required to carry a 229R DAK in .40 for the last two years with my prior agency. I did not like the weapon; however, I would say that the trigger was pretty smooth. Loooong pull but smooth. I do NOT like SIGs while I recognize them to be quality weapons. I'm now with an agency that allows me choice and I've got the P7M13 back on my hip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
I also carry the DAK in a 229R .357 with my agency. I have not fired an LEM but hear it's the "Cat's ass". I also don't like the DAK (too long), although it's accurate as hell with a steady trigger pull. I would love to go to another agency that allows personal choice of duty weapon, but I'm stuck with the DAK. I would rather the Glock's trigger in DAO, or just a DA/SA.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
I have a P2000 and a USP45c, both with LEM triggers, as well as a Sig P229 with the DAK trigger. I much prefer the LEM trigger as it has a short trigger pull and a very short trigger reset; the DAK trigger is very much like a revolver's trigger in that it has a long trigger pull and a very long trigger reset - although it has a smoother trigger pull than I have experienced on any revolver. I can shoot very well with the P229, but I feel it is just too "chunky" for concealed carry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
I have a P2000 and a USP45c, both with LEM triggers, as well as a Sig P229 with the DAK trigger. I much prefer the LEM trigger as it has a short trigger pull and a very short trigger reset; the DAK trigger is very much like a revolver's trigger in that it has a long trigger pull and a very long trigger reset - although it has a smoother trigger pull than I have experienced on any revolver. I can shoot very well with the P229, but I feel it is just too "chunky" for concealed carry.
I'll echo this post; except that in addition to the P2000 9mm and USPc .45, I also have a USPf 9mm w/LEM, and an issue P226 instead of a P229.

The DAK impresses those who don't really understand what a point'n'pull trigger should be... or those who have never handled a LEM...;)

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
802 Posts
I'The DAK impresses those who don't really understand what a point'n'pull trigger should be... or those who have never handled a LEM...;)

.
LEM impresses those who don't know how to use a safety and what a real trigger should be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
597 Posts
Having both trigger groups, i can say that I believe the LEM is somewhat the faster trigger. Light pull in SA and heavy in DA.

DAK is the opposite, heavy in SA and light in DA

LEM stacks a little towards the end of it's travel in DA.

DAK is smoother than LEM, but DAK seems a tad heavier in DA. But the smoothness does make up for it.

Both LEM & DAK are long travel triggers in DA, but this to me is not a disadvantage. I have attended HIGHLY regarded CQB pistol courses where I've seen people get shot by students with race triggered 1911's. Good thing the rounds were richoched frangibles. After a bloody event like that with way off target 'hits'. You quickly realize the LEM/DAK's are not based on 'guesswork', or serve to stroke one's ego.

Reset for both is what you'd expect of these types of DAO systems.

The LEM trigger will 'break' each time in a slightly inconsistent way.

The DAK breaks crisp & consistently, like glass.

The LEM will pull lighter with more use, say after couple thousand rounds perhaps. I have over 9000 rds. in my 9mm P2000.

Both triggers have double-strike capability. Although, I believe there was an issue with early 9mm P229 DAK's that had light primer strike probs. But correct me if I'm wrong.

Hk's LEM will hit the primer hard.

Accuracy is top notch with my LEM P2000, This I believe is due to:
1. Soft recoiling gun and caliber (9 vs. .45)
2. Faster trigger design (imho)

Accuracy with a .45 DAK Sig is outstanding as well just not as quick to me as a 9mm P2k.

Shooting both fast & under stress, the DAK and the LEM both in SA you do not feel the heavier SA of the Sig or the lighter SA pull of the Hk. You are just under adrenalin and moving too quick to realize it.

Both are the same, both are different at the same time. I'd say therefore, get BOTH.

I am required to carry DAO triggered guns, except for my SA/DA P226 which I can carry now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
381 Posts
I have been wanting a 229 DAK myself. I do love the LEM P2000 and P2000sk that I have.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
LEM/DAK DA/SA?

I'm not sure what you guys are referring to when you say the LEM or DAK "in SA" or "in DA." If you're referring to the "initial" trigger pull and then the "reset" trigger pull for follow-up shots then I understand. Use of the terms DA/SA on what are essentially both DAO guns is misleading and confusing. Both are essentially DAO triggers, unless you are referring to the double strike capability, which happens after a misfire, and then the trigger pull is significantly heavier, at least w/ the LEM.

The LEM is a double action only trigger pull w/ a long first round pull where the weight is almost nonexistant until the trigger reaches, after about an inch or so of pull, a stacking point. From that point forward the pull is one of three available weights, around 8 pounds, around 7 pounds and around 5 pounds. Once the shot is fired the reset is very short, not nearly as long as the initial pull, but the weight of the pull remains exactly the same. There is no SA or DA change. Always the same. From what I refer to as the stacking point the trigger pull is similar to an SA trigger, fairly light and fairly short, but its not an SA trigger.

The DAK is similar although has some features that make it different. One available pull is exactly like a fairly light double action revolver trigger pull, similar to a nicely tuned Colt Python, long and about 6.5 pounds. The (in my view) odd part is the reset. The DAK has two possible reset options. The first is to let the trigger return all the way to the starting point, as one would with a double action revolver trigger, and then pull again. Its long and a consistent 6.5 pounds. The other option is a fairly short reset, similar to the LEM, but the weight of the pull changes from the initial pull of 6.5 pounds to a "short reset" pull of about 8.5 pounds. Again, sort of odd in my view.

I have the light (approx 5 pounds) LEM trigger on the 5 H&K handguns I own (USP9f, USP9c, USP45c, P2000 and P2000SK). I have shot many thousands of rounds out of them and think it is the cat's meow of DAO triggers. I have dry fired the 229 DAK that a Postal Inspector friend of mine carries as his duty gun. I think its nice, especially if you allow the full length reset for a consistent 6.5 pound pull, but it seems that it would be slower for follow up shots. I also think using the shorter reset w/ the heavier 8.5 pound pull would have an adverse effect on accuracy, but who knows. Its just odd to have a lighter first round pull and then a shorter, heavier follow-up shot. As my friend the postal inspector said, I'd rather have the LEM but I don't feel bad carrying the DAK.

BTW, after thousands of rounds through LEM guns I find the LEM to be VERY consistent in pull and break. I find that to be one of the greatest benefits. Always breaks the same weight and the same place. I think the DAK, w/ its two possible reset trigger pulls, the long at 6.5 pounds and the short at 8.5 pounds would be something I describe as inconsistent. Again I like it, just not as much as a LEM. FWIW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
. After a bloody event like that with way off target 'hits'. You quickly realize the LEM/DAK's are not based on 'guesswork', or serve to stroke one's ego.

So much for 1911 elitism.

Thank you for that, quikz. You saved me some typing...

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
BTW, after thousands of rounds through LEM guns I find the LEM to be VERY consistent in pull and break. I find that to be one of the greatest benefits. Always breaks the same weight and the same place. I think the DAK, w/ its two possible reset trigger pulls, the long at 6.5 pounds and the short at 8.5 pounds would be something I describe as inconsistent./QUOTE]


Well said. I concur 100%.

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
597 Posts
I only said it was inconsistent as far as the LEM's break, is because I was in the R&D room of a MAJOR gun mfr. (competitor), and they had measured the break on LEM triggers and found some inconsistency as far as the 'break'.

While shooting many thousands of rounds all LEM, I have yet to detect it or if it is there, it has yet to interfere with my shooting. I have brought home a Division trophy and am a NRA certified "Sharp Shooter", all with my 'beater' 9mm P2000 in LEM so, I couldn't say it interferes with me.
 
G

·
The DAK is identical to a good Smith revolver. The LEM is a tad lighter, but it stacks right before the release, basically making it a long single action trigger. I think the DAK is better, but it's a individual call. I prefer smooth with a surprise break even if it is a little heavier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
How does the DAK compare to the LEM? It doesn't!

I love Sig guns, but the DAK is a terrible system. The LEM is a great system for LE or CCW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
I notice this wasn't mentioned.

The DAK's my department tested didn't have a good trigger design for people with short fingers / small hands. Specifically, when using the double stacked series (P226, P229), not so difficult with the P220. Again it's very similar to a revolver or the S&W Sigma, which is great for transitioning from revolver.

my dept tested the DAK and it was declined hands down. I was unaware of one person out of about 100 who tested it, that liked it. Most likely due to the long stroke. Most people wanted easier to shoot, ie. Glock. DAK seems harder to learn for people who already shoot, DA/SA.

Also, my LEM transition was easy, to me just felt like a single action only gun with a little longer pull. Mine, USPc .40, 5 lb, LEM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Scontrada, interesting experience that I would expect is typical of Glock shooters. It seems to me that those shooters who cut their teeth on Glocks or 1911s have a very difficult time acclimating to other trigger systems. They are easy to shoot guns, and anything longer, heavier, or without a super-short reset can be deemed inferior, which simply isn't true. But many people feel that way. I'm not reading in anything to your comments except that I've seen it so many times before. Most everyone else loves the DAK when they try it, because it is so easy and smooth and a pleasure to shoot.

However, I'm not a big fan of DAK. John Taylor's comments were right on the money. Except I would add that the short reset option on the DAK isn't really that short, more of a 3/4 reset. And transitioning to a heavier trigger from a lighter one is very counterintuitive for me. Worse yet the sear let-off on the short reset is different than the 6.5 lb trigger with horrible overtravel. It's very awkward to shoot quickly and is why I subscribe to fully resetting the DAK when shooting quickly.

I have personally had problems with light primer strikes in my P229 DAK 9mm. I've not had any problems with my .40 or .357 SIG but attribute this to the harder primes unique to NATO-grade 9mm ammo. Still, I think the mainspring in the SIG DAK's is too light, combine that with a hammer with very little mass and it's a recipe for light primer strikes. I'll pass.

Although I can classify expert in IDPA with a .357 SIG DAK P229 I greatly prefer my LEM P2000s. They are fast, accurate, and safe. There is virtually no risk of light primer strikes and the trigger resets faster than my sights can, so it's not slowing me down in the least. I know the LEM is classified as a DAO trigger but it operates more like a cocked SA with a long take up. I prefer to view it as a long two-stage trigger. The relatively light weight of acutally drawing the hammer back is not technically the same as traditional DAO as the cocking piece and mainspring are already fully cocked. I do believe the long take up adds an extra measure of safety not found in other designs (similar to DAK though) without compromising speed in the least. Also, no manual safety is necessary and a well-tuned shooter can shoot an LEM very, very fast. I really like the ability to stage the trigger at the sear break for precision shots. It is my current favorite trigger system.

Tim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
The DAK is identical to a good Smith revolver.

I would vigourously disagree.

The return/reset stroke of the DAK has a peculiar "two-stage" double click to it that is unique among any of the major weapon systems I have fired.

That said, our troops in general don't seem to have trouble with it. In fact, the only people who actively dislike it are "gun people", or those with experience on other trigger systems.

The duffers, as usual, could not care less.

But the DAK makes you work harder for controlled pairs/sustained fire. The LEM makes it easy.

.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top