HKPRO Forums banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Have HK94 DOC marking . Research says 420 last HP94 sold to California Dept of Correction , some post as DOJ. Says DOC on firearm.
Call HK civilian: 1989 mfg sold in 2005, not helpful; get transfer to LE Mr Bohner in Military, he sends email that he forward to HK research. Call BATF 3X get email reply: If HK stamped HP94 with s/n 43-XXXXX its a title I non NFRTR firearm title II.

Check with Cal. DOC, Senior Safety Officer , Lt. Kurtman in California DOC. He recalls the 420 lot was sold to DOC, some DOJ, but his spreadsheet firearm control register says, nada, before he took over. He recall HK94 replaced with Mini 14's, and due to Roberts Roots law, no assault rifle could be sold in California after 1989. So H&K LE division had to make a deal and exchanged HP94 DOC for USP's. He also remembers that the individual prison keep details paper record, and believed this happen around 2005 or so.

Next HK re-verifies HP94 43-XXXXX was re sold in 2005. Now here is my question:
Q1Not on NFRTR, HK94 not MP5SFA2 (FBI) since ATF has no records of such a firearm, books say HP94 assembled around 12/1991 have fully automatic bolt carriers, but SF fire controls. So what is it. The trigger looks like the so called FBI SF with the release lever, but the catcher 9auto sears removed). Sear made on 5/19/1986, but papered thereafter have been reclassified by BATF as "samples" Right.

Any help would be appreciated since the FBI has no records of the so called SF called MP5SFA2/3's, yet they appear in HK MP5 Armorers Instruction manuals.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Update: Did I say, it was reported the FBI spec out around 1991 and wanted a "semi-automatic 9mm carbine". But FBI does seem to know if they ever bought them. If HK took the post 1986 HK94/MP5 parts and re engineered by removal of "catchers and release levers" from MP5 bottoms and labeled SF 01; welded the U to cover holes and make the so call "shelf". There was a famous by YORK on YAX Steh II, where BATF issued 83-5 and had them recalled since this open bolt fixed firearm had a re engineer disconnect/ that can be modified with little efforts. So the design, can be modified and not sporting rifle tests were met and BATF won case and cost York thousands of dollars. These were pre ban, and advertised as semi-automatics.

If the FBI for some reason in 1991, did not buy their specified SF 9mm carbine, and HK wanted to close out parts, it seems that the California DOC HK94 might be MP5SFA2's stamped HP94? These were post ban firearms in California and not civilian due to assault ban federal and state laws, so could only be sold to LE. California has the largest amount of prisons in the USA, right!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Keep in mind, unless you got the firearm direct from HK, anybody could have modified it or switched parts on you. "upgrades"

A HK MP5SF is a machine gun, plain and simple. It has the front push pin hole and with just a trigger pack change it will shoot full auto.

Can you post some pictures of the gun and the trigger pack you have?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Will post. H&K states sold 2005, I bought in around 2006 or so from a small gun store in Florida. He had two. I read that 1991 HK94 were made with a fully auto bolt carrier. It has a metal frame 0/1 and DOC inventory numbers. When I get a chance will send actual lower but look like the one in the HK94 Owners manual. The clip on has the release lever intact, but no visible sear in forward large hole like below picture: the grip is 0/1 like in owners manual. Oh by the way, the small gun shop was a licensed H&K retailer.

Well it will not paste! so go toPDF]HK94 Manual.pmd - PDF Text Files
pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/hk_94.pdf

Thanks for any help, the HK94 appears
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Follow up: Called H&K. 2005 sold by A.M. Char to Pelican Bay Prison. LE exchanged for USP deal. I bought in 2006 or so from a direct H&K dealers, so don't thing they changed parts out. Firearm was one of the few in 95% NRA condition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Will post. H&K states sold 2005, I bought in around 2006 or so from a small gun store in Florida. He had two. I read that 1991 HK94 were made with a fully auto bolt carrier. It has a metal frame 0/1 and DOC inventory numbers. When I get a chance will send actual lower but look like the one in the HK94 Owners manual. The clip on has the release lever intact, but no visible sear in forward large hole like below picture: the grip is 0/1 like in owners manual. Oh by the way, the small gun shop was a licensed H&K retailer.

Well it will not paste! so go toPDF]HK94 Manual.pmd - PDF Text Files
pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/hk_94.pdf

Thanks for any help, the HK94 appears

You are making me confused. Lets go through your post.

"Will post." Ok, you are now posting information.


" H&K states sold 2005, I bought in around 2006 or so from a small gun store in Florida. He had two." Sounds like a normal DOJ gun no big deal.

" I read that 1991 HK94 were made with a fully auto bolt carrier." Thats certainly possible. This does not make it a machine gun or an mp5sf.

"It has a metal frame 0/1 and DOC inventory numbers. When I get a chance will send actual lower but look like the one in the HK94 Owners manual." Yes, so its definitely a DOJ gun.

"The clip on has the release lever intact, but no visible sear in forward large hole like below picture: the grip is 0/1 like in owners manual." I think you have your part identification messed up. It seems people lately have been thinking the ejector is the release lever.

"Oh by the way, the small gun shop was a licensed H&K retailer." Yep, probably for sure a DOJ gun if you got it from a HK dealer in that time period.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,097 Posts
If it WAS in deed a true SF.....it would have a push pin lower. I've seen the MP5 push pins, that were nothing more than single fire, but capable of MG with the appropriate housing. But as ^^^^^^^^^^^^ said...PICS would resolve this ASAP
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
691 Posts
I think you are making a rather simple thing into something unnecessarily complex. As others have posted, the MP5SF has a dual pushpin machinegun receiver. It is considered a machinegun by ATF. It is highly unlikely that this is what you have, unless you are a FFL/SOT.

Your rifle sounds like a run of the mill Cali DOC HK94. Does it have a semiauto receiver with welded shelf? If so it's a semiauto-only HK94, nothing more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Forum members: Most of your replies are right on. T/c S&H Arms in Ok. He stated cliff DOJ guns he guarantees all had semi-automatic bolt carriers. No big deal he can weld fully automatice bolt carrier, if it was milled down. Sighs are open like SP89, right. Adam Webber at HK Parts had bouught 4 but most were not 955 NRA condition for $1500 10 or so years ago. S&H Arms suggsted File ATF Form 1 for SBR, he would cut down after approval, weld lug for fully automatic colt carrier, if was milled off, redo magazine to flapper tip, but still clit not two pinned receiver and not NFA.

What I dont understand is the mfg date is IK 1989; HK Parts shows 420 imported 1991 as LE, but why does HK say sold to AM Chad in 2005 , who resold to Pelican Bay Max. Prison in 2005. Receiver could have been made in 1989 (IK) put in parts bin, the finally was assemblied in 2005, maybe with an fully automatic bolt carrier, still cliff receiver HP94 9welded U bolt covering front pin whole for civilian market). Receiver never stamped MP5SFA2 (pinned receiver/flapper magazine lever.

Confiling info: ATF say I can buy a NFA sear$$$$, but cant get marriage. But S&H Arm seems to say after he modifies barrel length, magazine release , then the , it cliff/shelf trigger groups may be able to buy NFA S-E-F, but ATF says No good it is considered as newly manufactured SMG. NO NO!.So wh would I spend $1000 to modify HP94 and find it contraband it it get married? I think just follow foram and leave it alone as a DOJ/DOC HP94 in 95% condition, and wait if the NRA can convince our President Pro Gun to change the laws, it only takes his pen stroke, if we go to war in Asia!

Sorry cant post pic since 1000 miles OOS on vacation and bored due to bad weather, no beach weather!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
691 Posts
Forum members: Most of your replies are right on. T/c S&H Arms in Ok. He stated cliff DOJ guns he guarantees all had semi-automatic bolt carriers. No big deal he can weld fully automatice bolt carrier, if it was milled down. Sighs are open like SP89, right. Adam Webber at HK Parts had bouught 4 but most were not 955 NRA condition for $1500 10 or so years ago. S&H Arms suggsted File ATF Form 1 for SBR, he would cut down after approval, weld lug for fully automatic colt carrier, if was milled off, redo magazine to flapper tip, but still clit not two pinned receiver and not NFA.

What I dont understand is the mfg date is IK 1989; HK Parts shows 420 imported 1991 as LE, but why does HK say sold to AM Chad in 2005 , who resold to Pelican Bay Max. Prison in 2005. Receiver could have been made in 1989 (IK) put in parts bin, the finally was assemblied in 2005, maybe with an fully automatic bolt carrier, still cliff receiver HP94 9welded U bolt covering front pin whole for civilian market). Receiver never stamped MP5SFA2 (pinned receiver/flapper magazine lever.

Confiling info: ATF say I can buy a NFA sear$$$$, but cant get marriage. But S&H Arm seems to say after he modifies barrel length, magazine release , then the , it cliff/shelf trigger groups may be able to buy NFA S-E-F, but ATF says No good it is considered as newly manufactured SMG. NO NO!.So wh would I spend $1000 to modify HP94 and find it contraband it it get married? I think just follow foram and leave it alone as a DOJ/DOC HP94 in 95% condition, and wait if the NRA can convince our President Pro Gun to change the laws, it only takes his pen stroke, if we go to war in Asia!

Sorry cant post pic since 1000 miles OOS on vacation and bored due to bad weather, no beach weather!!!
It's really very simple. I think you are likely causing confusion with the ATF agent with whom you spoke because you yourself don't understand how HK hosts are converted using a registered sear. I'm not saying this in any way to denigrate you, so please don't take it that way. A HK sear is installed in a semiauto fire control frame (the steel box which holds the fire control parts and is installed in the lower). The semiauto trigger stop must be removed to permit fullauto fire in combination with the installed registered sear. ATF holds that a frame modified to accept a sear cannot be possessed without a sear (one "sear ready" modified frame per sear) because without the autosear installed, it could still fire more than one round per pull of the trigger due to hammer follow (i.e. "Slam fire").

The sear installed in a sear ready frame. The frame with sear are installed in a SEF lower which has been clipped and pinned to fit a semiauto receiver shelf. A fullauto-spec bolt carrier is used. Voila....the semiauto host is legally converted to fullauto.

A "married" host/sear refers to a sear that cannot be removed from the host. There are three primary scenarios for married sears: 1) a registered sear is installed into a host that started life as a rifle, had the barrel cut down under 16" (and therefore meets criteria for a short barrel rifle), but was never registered as a SBR. The host and sear may be "divorced" by registering the host as a sbr. This allows the sear to be moved to different hosts. 2) a registered sear that was installed in a host that has been modified to dual pushpin. There were guns converted this way, but ATF put a stop to it. Some were grandfathered by ATF. Because the receiver is MG spec, the sear may not be moved to another host as doing so leaves an unregistered MG (the host). The sear could be used in other host if the host was destroyed. There has also been speculation that the host could be returned to semi-auto only status by replacing/welding a shelf (allowed after the Vollmer v ATF court case). 3) Guns where the unaltered semiauto receiver was incorrectly registered as the machinegun and a non-factory unregistered fullauto conversion sear was used. The sear in these is forever married to the receiver which was incorrectly registered.

Since you are talking about registering a HK94 as a SBR, you would have no sear-host marriage issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
926 Posts
I am the only one here who can't understand what the hell this dude is droning on about?
I am totally lost as well. It's a semi auto shelf gun, plain and simple. If he wants to SBR it, that is fine and legal too. It's not a MG no matter how many times he try's to tell the story.

Sean
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
926 Posts
It's really very simple. I think you are likely causing confusion with the ATF agent with whom you spoke because you yourself don't understand how HK hosts are converted using a registered sear. I'm not saying this in any way to denigrate you, so please don't take it that way. A HK sear is installed in a semiauto fire control frame (the steel box which holds the fire control parts and is installed in the lower). The semiauto trigger stop must be removed to permit fullauto fire in combination with the installed registered sear. ATF holds that a frame modified to accept a sear cannot be possessed without a sear (one "sear ready" modified frame per sear) because without the autosear installed, it could still fire more than one round per pull of the trigger due to hammer follow (i.e. "Slam fire").

The sear installed in a sear ready frame. The frame with sear are installed in a SEF lower which has been clipped and pinned to fit a semiauto receiver shelf. A fullauto-spec bolt carrier is used. Voila....the semiauto host is legally converted to fullauto.

A "married" host/sear refers to a sear that cannot be removed from the host. There are three primary scenarios for married sears: 1) a registered sear is installed into a host that started life as a rifle, had the barrel cut down under 16" (and therefore meets criteria for a short barrel rifle), but was never registered as a SBR. The host and sear may be "divorced" by registering the host as a sbr. This allows the sear to be moved to different hosts. 2) a registered sear that was installed in a host that has been modified to dual pushpin. There were guns converted this way, but ATF put a stop to it. Some were grandfathered by ATF. Because the receiver is MG spec, the sear may not be moved to another host as doing so leaves an unregistered MG (the host). The sear could be used in other host if the host was destroyed. There has also been speculation that the host could be returned to semi-auto only status by replacing/welding a shelf (allowed after the Vollmer v ATF court case). 3) Guns where the unaltered semiauto receiver was incorrectly registered as the machinegun and a non-factory unregistered fullauto conversion sear was used. The sear in these is forever married to the receiver which was incorrectly registered.

Since you are talking about registering a HK94 as a SBR, you would have no sear-host marriage issues.
That's a great and logical explanation on your part. I didn't mean anything negative either, it was just so confusing.

Thanks,

Sean
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top