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H&K Certified Armorer
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Soooooooo... for all of you that have been following my story of my SL8/G36 conversion and have seen the photos through Phase-1 and Phase-2, you know I put a TON of time and patience into it. I completly poured my heart and soul into the project tory ensure the results were "perfect".

So I took the receiver into an engraving shop to have some of the required markings engraved... went to go pick it up today... IT WAS ALL F*CKED UP!

I SPECIFICALLY said to laser engrave it... did they? NOPE! Looked like a blind monkey on Viagra took a dremel to it! And to top it all off... I asked them if they could "sharpen" the s/n as my blasting wore it down some. What did they do? They re-engraved over it, using the wrong font, wrong size, wrong spacing. The only thing that would make the s/n legible would be 3D glasses!

Of course, the owner wasn't in the but the manager said they woul probably replace the gun for me. Fine and all but ALL THAT WORK LOST! :(
 

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ouch...sorry to hear that. hopefully things get straightened out quickly

when i originally read your title, i was like "wtf, how do you LOSE a gun?!?"
 

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Merchant of Death (Admin)
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Blah. I feel your pain.
 

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In todays world, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself.
Or at least be standing behind the guy doing the work looking over his shoulder.
I feel your pain.
 

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H&K Certified Armorer
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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks guys for the sentiments, I appreciate it. It just blows... HARD! I carried that thing around the house EVERYWHERE, lol. If my finace would have let me, I would have mounted it on the mantle :D

I always try to find some good in anything that goes bad so maybe this was one of those "blessings in disguise".

When I first started planning this conversion, I wrote the ATF. A week or so later I wrote another one with a little more detail including the whole Form-1 scenario. The response to the first letter gave me the green light... so whalah! Let the conversion begin. Yesterday, I received the response to the second letter, nope, zip, nada... no go on the conversion, no go even with a Form-1. So I called the ATF today for clarity/explaination and it was clearly explained to me why that even with a Form-1 this conversion is prohibited even though my first letter got the green light.

Needless to say, it's a cup 1/2 full vs. 1/2 emptly case where the opposing perspective seems far more definite and the pro-perspective seems a bit more of a "work-around". So, is it worth taking the "work-around" path? Eh, while the argument is indeed valid, do you really want to argue it with LE or worse yet, in front of a judge and try to convice him/her?... so there's my positive spin, I get a second chance at reconsidering the conversion... and while it would be a dream to have a G36 clone, I think this one we'll skip.
 

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That's terrible, one of my big fears with getting an SBR was getting the engraving done.

On an unrelated note, did anyone else find it ironic that the "I lost my gun" post was right next to the "Proud owner of a new HK" post?
 

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sorry bro, that sucks. I'd make sure the manager/owner fully understands the work you put into that gun, perhaps he'll do the right thing and compensate for the work as well.
 

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Premium Member
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First of all - They said they will replace it??? Are they aware (yet) that replacing it will cost close to what, $2,000? If they will, without a fight, that is great. Most businesses would likely try to pull some crap like "we're only responsible for the engraving. Here's your $100 back."

Second - could you scan and post your letters/responses, with any personal information redacted, of course? What was it they first approved, and then retracted, and why?
 

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H&K Certified Armorer
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8,213 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
First of all - They said they will replace it??? Are they aware (yet) that replacing it will cost close to what, $2,000? If they will, without a fight, that is great. Most businesses would likely try to pull some crap like "we're only responsible for the engraving. Here's your $100 back."

Second - could you scan and post your letters/responses, with any personal information redacted, of course? What was it they first approved, and then retracted, and why?
Lol, thanks Dave! I told the mgr is was $3000, he gasped - It was new "partial" HDPS conversion in that it had the stock block conversion with no magwell conversion. First thing I did was sell off the HDPS block and "C" stock.

I'm sure they have insurance. But in any event, I'll drag them to court and they DID deface a serial number -- which I will make them aware of :D

Not much of anything made sense till I had the verbal conversion today. I'd rather not post letters and such, but if you PM me your email addy, I'd be glad to scan and email them to you.
 

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Sounds like a small claims case in the making. Heck, maybe you could get on the "Peoples Court" with Judge Judy. All kidding aside, best of luck on getting your money from these monkeys.
 

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"Judge Judy" and "The People's Court" are two separate entities. Both being in New York it's unlikely they'll be interested in a case involving such an evil gun. Being that's it's illegal to even be in possesion of it there.
 

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Premium Member
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Are you saying that the T-Bostic conversion to include the movement of the S/N is a NO NO with the ATF???

Thanks guys for the sentiments, I appreciate it. It just blows... HARD! I carried that thing around the house EVERYWHERE, lol. If my finace would have let me, I would have mounted it on the mantle :D

I always try to find some good in anything that goes bad so maybe this was one of those "blessings in disguise".

When I first started planning this conversion, I wrote the ATF. A week or so later I wrote another one with a little more detail including the whole Form-1 scenario. The response to the first letter gave me the green light... so whalah! Let the conversion begin. Yesterday, I received the response to the second letter, nope, zip, nada... no go on the conversion, no go even with a Form-1. So I called the ATF today for clarity/explaination and it was clearly explained to me why that even with a Form-1 this conversion is prohibited even though my first letter got the green light.

Needless to say, it's a cup 1/2 full vs. 1/2 emptly case where the opposing perspective seems far more definite and the pro-perspective seems a bit more of a "work-around". So, is it worth taking the "work-around" path? Eh, while the argument is indeed valid, do you really want to argue it with LE or worse yet, in front of a judge and try to convice him/her?... so there's my positive spin, I get a second chance at reconsidering the conversion... and while it would be a dream to have a G36 clone, I think this one we'll skip.
 

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Please post where you took it for the engraving to save someone else the pain you must be suffering. Wish you luck in getting it made right.

Paul
 

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H&K Certified Armorer
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Discussion Starter #17
Are you saying that the T-Bostic conversion to include the movement of the S/N is a NO NO with the ATF???
According to the Duty Officer I spoke with yesterday and today, the ONLY way to remove the "original" mfg s/n as it was "originally" applied by the mfg is for the firearm to go through the "destruction" process. Unfortunately, that process doesn't leave much left of the receiver as salvagable... as we know from seeing parts kits.

As explained to me, when you Form-1 a rifle, all you are really doing is registering the mfg of an SBR but you are still bound by the laws pertaining to the removal, alteration and obliteration of the s/n. In the case of the Gen-3 (or using the rear section of a demiled G36), you ARE taking an existing serialized receiver and whacking off the serial number. You being the mfg does not simply give you the legal ability to do so, even if you apply the s/n to the new location first.

The argument I presented was: It's legal to remove portions of the receiver for replacement. What is to say that the portion removed is the "front" portion, leaving the "rear" portion with the serial number intact. And as a result, one chooses to use the "front" portion to mfg a new receiver while leaving the "rear" portion (with the serial number) as the original receiver.

He understood my argument and simply responded, "That argument is best left to attorneys.", suggesting that 3" of serialized material is not enough of the original receiver to still be considered a receiver.

Essentially, the first letter I got back from the ATF essentially said "sure, remove the rear 3" and replace with a fabricated section for the purpose of attaching a folding stock." The secon letter I got essentially said "oh, wait, that's the serialized portion, no, no... not even with a Form-1 as a Form-1 has nothing to do with the removal of a s/n."

I know that Tom has gotten some type of approval for his Gen-3 but I would be curious to know HOW detailed the verification is and if it includes SPECIFIC language that CLEARLY states that the s/n can be removed.

Tommy is a great guy and I would NEVER want to deter business from him (or anyone for that matter)... but we are a community here and think no matter what, above all else, we should watch out for one another when something we see or hear could have potential negative ramifications for one another, including Tommy. I genuinely hope there is a postive resolve to this looming "grey" area as I would love to see these builds take place.
 

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H&K Certified Armorer
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Discussion Starter #18
Please post where you took it for the engraving to save someone else the pain you must be suffering. Wish you luck in getting it made right.

Paul
Engraving Connection, Plymouth, Michigan. They aren't specifically a firearms engraver although they DO do all the engraving for area PD's.

At first look, they said they would "grind" engrave it. I told them it was plastic and that they needed to laser engrave it. Not initally realizing that it was plastic, they agreed. Apparently when they got to doing it, it would not fit under their laser engraver so rather than CALL ME, they "grind" engraved it which f*ucked it all up.

When it came to the s/n, I asked them if they could sucessfully add depth to the existing numbers, they said sure. But instead they just simply engraved new numbers right over the old.
 

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I really feel bad for you in this situation. Sounds like you will eventually have to see a lawyer.

What a hack job.
 

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lx460, lighten up. It was a joke. Those TV shows take small claims cases from all over the country. I was making the point that this will probably not be resolved without taking it throught the legal system, where one has to spend even more money and time to make things right.
 
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