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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I dont think the O ring will improve accuracy, but I would assume the extra .66" of the barrel will. I have the uspf 45 now and I am very accurate with it, I like the fact that I get the shorter grip but same length barrel, although the site radius is still the same as the USPc.

The other option is to get the USPc LEM and have a Jarvis barrel made, This will be for carry so I do not want to sacrifice dependability by using a non HK barrel, although a rifled barrel may be more accurate than the standard, but again I dont want to sacrifice reliability for accuracy.

Is it worth the money for my intended use? As soon as I get a USP45CT LEM I will have standard uspc night sights installed. I will also be sending this out to be cobra chromed or NP3 plated, but I doubt that matters either way. To be honest, I probably wont suppress this pistol in the near future, but I do plan on eventually getting a suppressor, I cant say for sure I'll want to suppress a 45 unless better dry suppression technology gets released though (i.e. blackbox suppressor).

The price breakdown from the prices I have seen work out to(shipping included in both prices):
  • $1035.00 - USPc 45 including the cost of the jarvis barrel, night sights, and LEM (does not include shipping to and from jarvis)
  • $1160.00 - USP45CT with the installed night sights (this option allows me to put on the after market green/orange night sights I want and saves me from having to ship the barrel to jarvis and the wait time)

Still debating between the USPc / USP45CT and P2000, but the USP45CT is starting to edge ahead if its worth it for my purposes and intended use, but again that all depends on if the .66" of extended barrel is going to make any difference in accuracy.
 

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The extended barrel won't make a difference. With pistols, how everything fits makes a bigger difference. O-ring has been contraversial.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The extended barrel won't make a difference. With pistols, how everything fits makes a bigger difference. O-ring has been contraversial.
Wouldnt bullet speed increase at the very least? I just always have found guns with longer barrels are more accurate, but that could be do also to the longer sight radius that this wont have.
 

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Wouldnt bullet speed increase at the very least? I just always have found guns with longer barrels are more accurate, but that could be do also to the longer sight radius that this wont have.
Yes, but the increase in speed will be negligible. . . I would think maybe less than 50 fps (if even that).
 

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50 fps is about right, but I would not say that is negligible.

I can't compare against a standard USPc, but my USP C-T is as accurate in my hands as my Nighthawk GRP and nearly achieves the same velocity. I love my C-T.

Tim
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So the consensus is that the .66" extra barrel of the CT will not affect accuracy but will give me a boost in speed? If Im not absolutely sure Im going to suppress it, thats $250.00 for slightly more speed with no accuracy gains.
 

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So the consensus is that the .66" extra barrel of the CT will not affect accuracy but will give me a boost in speed? If Im not absolutely sure Im going to suppress it, thats $250.00 for slightly more speed with no accuracy gains.
Just to help you put it in perspective, if the speed increase is 50 fps (its probably less), I get more than 50 fps variation out of a string of 15 shots fired. That's 15 shots of exactly the same ammo with the exact same amount of powder, same cases, same primers, and same bullets all fired within about a minute of each other in the exact same environment. Of all the loads I've ever chronographed, I've never seen a string of 15 shots with less of a total variance (fastest to slowest) than 50 fps. And that goes for both 9mm and 45 ACP at normal overall factory velocities.

The CT is a GREAT gun, but it's no better than the USP Compact 45. If you know you aren't going to need the threaded barrel, then there is no advantage at all with the CT over the USP Compact 45. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Just to help you put it in perspective, if the speed increase is 50 fps (its probably less), I get more than 50 fps variation out of a string of 15 shots fired. That's 15 shots of exactly the same ammo with the exact same amount of powder, same cases, same primers, and same bullets all fired within about a minute of each other in the exact same environment. Of all the loads I've ever chronographed, I've never seen a string of 15 shots with less of a total variance (fastest to slowest) than 50 fps. And that goes for both 9mm and 45 ACP at normal overall factory velocities.

The CT is a GREAT gun, but it's no better than the USP Compact 45. If you know you aren't going to need the threaded barrel, then there is no advantage at all with the CT over the USP Compact 45. :)
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I definitely want to get a can, but if 45 suppression technology doesnt get any better for dry cans I dont know that I would suppress my 45's.

I am still confused, maybe someone can sort me out....I started shooting 1911's and I was always taught that a government 5" model will always have more speed and better accuracy than the 4" commander model shooting the same round because of the extra inch on the barrel. Was this incorrect, and its the sight radius thats giving people that extra accuracy or what? This is why I just assumed that the extra almost 7/10" would be of some benefit.
 

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In fact, any increase in the length of the barrel will increase your accuracy to a certain extent, that's the concept with rifles. In a compact handgun, being that the barrel is some three inches, it's highly inaccurate shooting at distances beyond 15 meters, where as a full size can easily be used to engage targets in and up to some 25 meters+ away.

The mechanics behind a rifle is bullet stability. Of course it doesn't take a quantum physics major to figure out, the more stable your bullet is, the greater the accuracy. Increasing a 3" barrel to 4", the accuracy will be greater, increase that same barrel to 6" and you're dead on at 40 feet and below (depending on your skill). The reason rifle barrels are some 12' or more is due to the added stability of the bullet exiting the muzzle. When a bullet is fired, vibrations in the barrel cause the bullet to change its trajectory, the length of the barrel stabilizes the bullet enough to sustain it at a greater distance. The rifling twists e.g. "9/1 twist" plays a part as well. Too many twists, and your bullet will spin off its axis , too little and the bullet will tumble loosing accuratcy... but thats too deep into it.

All in all, yes increasing your barrel length will increase your accuracy. However there are other factors such as individual skill, bullet weight, air temp, wind..ect, but the over all factor is that the increase will give you some greater accuracy.. depending on the amount of increase.
 

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The point is that the extra 1/2 inch or so in barrel length definitely isn't going to give you a noticeable increase in velocity nor accuracy.
 

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. . . I am still confused, maybe someone can sort me out....I started shooting 1911's and I was always taught that a government 5" model will always have more speed and better accuracy than the 4" commander model shooting the same round because of the extra inch on the barrel. Was this incorrect, and its the sight radius thats giving people that extra accuracy or what? . . .
Yes, it is the increased sight radius that does the most to improve the accuracy potential in your example. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Yes, it is the increased sight radius that does the most to improve the accuracy potential in your example. :)
makes sense.
 

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Rifle and pistols are two totally different animals when it comes to accuracy. With a pistol, once the bullet begins to travel down the barrel, the entire slide assembly is starting to move. Accuracy is dependant on what everything is doing every single time it starts moving. Since the sights are mounted to the slide, the barrel must return to the same location every time. This is why a hand fitted barrel is more accurate than a factory unfitted barrel. Next comes slide to frame fit, though this is less of an issue. Bruce Gray has built a gun for Mickey Fowler, a USPc45 with a hand fitted Bar-sto barrel and a Doctor sight. That gun will shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. That's about as accurate as you can get with a semi-auto pistol.

When you start comparing 5" gun to 4", other factors come into play. 5" obviously has a longer sight radius. This allows you to see more fine movement of the sight. The 5" gun is also heavier. Heavier guns are more stable for longer shot. Heavier guns, especially when the weight is in the frame, also remains more stable on recoil allowing for faster followup shots.

The longer barrel length has very little effect on velocity and accuracy to really make a difference.
 

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There won't be any difference in mechanical accuracy (i.e. if you hooked both up to a ransom rest there would be no difference). Like others said, it's the sight radius. I doubt the difference in speed is even 50 FPS either. Probably more like 25-30.
 

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Man, I've engaged targets at point blank, in small rooms 10/30ft, to well over 1600 meters away, trust me the longer your barrel the greater your accuracy.

Yes, handguns and rifles are different, however the concept of the barrels are the same. The number of moving parts does play a factor just like point of aim, weapon sights, trigger squeeze, breathing, and grip, however the bottom line question remains.. "will the extended barrel give greater accuracy" the answer is YES. ANY, and I do say ANY added stability to the bullet exiting the barrel will increase its accuracy. How much more accurate will your shots be; that depends on a number of things, the shooter, and how much of an increase in the barrel.

We can get into all the other mechanics behind shooting but thats takes too much time to explain.. e.g. pitch/yaw, twist rate, knetic energy, baromic pressure..ect

Simple test, go down to your local range with your compact. If they rent guns, go ahead and get a full size what ever. Put your target out 30 feet and shoot 4 rounds at the 9 on the left, switch weapons, and fire off 4 with the other aiming at the 9 on the right... compare, I bet your shot group with the full size is tighter than the compact.
 

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Ditto that you will see no accuracy change due to the o-ring and according to my ballistic calculator the change in velocity is only 33 fps. There is a larger deviation in velocity from one bullet to the next in the same gun for most loads so that 33 fps means absolutely nothing IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ok case closed then. No reason to get a CT unless I am absolutely certain I 45ACP is the caliber I want to suppress.
 

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You forgot one important thing...chicks dig a guy with a threaded barrel! lol

Someone please put HK's in these chicks hands?

 

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Man, I've engaged targets at point blank, in small rooms 10/30ft, to well over 1600 meters away, trust me the longer your barrel the greater your accuracy.

Yes, handguns and rifles are different, however the concept of the barrels are the same. The number of moving parts does play a factor just like point of aim, weapon sights, trigger squeeze, breathing, and grip, however the bottom line question remains.. "will the extended barrel give greater accuracy" the answer is YES. ANY, and I do say ANY added stability to the bullet exiting the barrel will increase its accuracy. How much more accurate will your shots be; that depends on a number of things, the shooter, and how much of an increase in the barrel.

We can get into all the other mechanics behind shooting but thats takes too much time to explain.. e.g. pitch/yaw, twist rate, knetic energy, baromic pressure..ect

Simple test, go down to your local range with your compact. If they rent guns, go ahead and get a full size what ever. Put your target out 30 feet and shoot 4 rounds at the 9 on the left, switch weapons, and fire off 4 with the other aiming at the 9 on the right... compare, I bet your shot group with the full size is tighter than the compact.
ABN96B,

It sounds as though you have experience as a sniper but your characterizations of what contributes to bullet stabilization and accuracy aren't totally correct.

The bottom line, a 3.8" barrel will stabilize a .45 bullet just as well as a 4.46" barrel. No difference, unless the barrels have flaws. Even the Army has come to learn that longer barrels don't necessarily mean greater accuracy. Barrel to slide fit, sight radius, trigger quality and balance are all major contributors to accuracy in a pistol, far more influential than .66" barrel.

I do disagree with those who state that 33-50 fps is not an advantage. Of course it is, it just may not be significant to you. In a short-barreled pistol, shorter than what the ammunition was specifically designed for, every bit of velocity that can be recovered by a longer barrel is of value. It may not be worth $250, but I will always take 50 fps (or 33 fps) more. I have chrono'd many loads that have extreme spreads less than 50 fps from my handguns, some as small as 12 fps! Despite crossover in velocity, there are measurable differences in the nominal averages and in a USPc with it's stubby barrel I'll take the extra .66" of the C-T. 2/3rd's of an inch is a lot of room to work with in a .45 ACP.

Below are results from two chrono sessions last year with my C-T and a 5" Nighthawk 1911. The polygonal bore of the C-T comes close to matching the conventional 5" with certain loads, in some cases exceeded it, but still lags in the average. 3.8" would be measurably slower, yet. I will always prefer the higher velocity, but the handiness of the C-T leads me to prefer it for general CCW duty over the Nighthawk. Notice the ES on the loads, twenty of which are lower than 50 fps. Again, my C-T is every bit as accurate as my $2K match-fitted Nighthhawk, and I prefer it as a fighting gun, too.

Tim

Chronygraphy: 20060904

85 degrees, 300 ft, sunny, chrono at 10 ft., 10 round strings (unless otherwise stated)

Pistols:
Nighthawk Custom GRP .45 ACP
HK USPc C-T .45 ACP

NHC GRP, Cor-Bon 230 JHP+P
lo 972
hi 998
avg 986
es 27
sd 8

HK USPc C-T, Cor-Bon 230 JHP+P
lo 952
hi 979
avg 963
es 27
sd 8

NHC GRP, Speer 200 GDHP+P, String 1
lo 1001
hi 1076
avg 1033
es 76
sd 22

HK USPc C-T, Speer 200 GDHP+P, String 1
lo 997
hi 1043
avg 1022
es 45
sd 15

NHC GRP, Speer 200 GDHP+P, String 2
lo 1019
hi 1064
avg 1047
es 45
sd 13

HK USPc C-T, Speer 200 GDHP+P, String 2
lo 1020
hi 1052
avg 1034
es 32
sd 10

NHC GRP, Blazer Brass 230 FMJ
lo 825
hi 856
avg 842
es 32
sd 10

HK USPc C-T, Blazer Brass 230 FMJ
lo 799
hi 821
avg 812
es 22
sd 7

NHC GRP, Independence 230 FMJ
lo 818
hi 851
avg 835
es 34
sd 12

HK USPc C-T, Independence 230 FMJ
lo 777
hi 820
avg 798
es 43
sd 13

20060905, 80 degrees, sunny, 300 ft

NHC GRP, PMC 230 FMJ
lo 772
hi 826
avg 804
es 54
sd 16

NHC GRP, Win WB 185 FMJ
lo 852
hi 884
avg 875
es 32
sd 11

NHC GRP, Win WB 230 JHP
lo 871
hi 896
avg 882
es 25
sd 8

NHC GRP, Rem 230 GSHP
lo 809
hi 896
avg 850
es 87
sd 25

NHC GRP, Fed Classic 230 Hi-Shok JHP
lo 853
hi 891
avg 877
es 38
sd 11

NHC GRP, Win 185 STHP
lo 976
hi 1004
avg 993
es 27
sd 9

NHC GRP, Speer 230 GDHP
lo 856
hi 896
avg 880
es 40
sd 13

NHC GRP, Speer 200 GDHP+P (0906 date of purchase)
lo 1065
hi 1100
avg 1090
es 35
sd 12

USPc C-T, PMC 230 FMJ
lo 794
hi 831
avg 817
es 37
sd 14

USPc C-T, Win WB 185 FMJ
lo 840
hi 889
avg 873
es 49
sd 15

USPc C-T, Win WB 230 JHP
lo 865
hi 896
avg 884
es 31
sd 12

USPc C-T, Rem 230 GSHP (5 Rounds)
lo 792
hi 868
avg 835
es 76
sd 32

USPc C-T, Fed Classic 230 Hi-Shok JHP
lo 859
hi 884
avg 873
es 25
sd 7

USPc C-T, Win 185 STHP
lo 939
hi 985
avg 958
es 46
sd 16
 

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The reason rifle barrels are some 12' or more is due to the added stability of the bullet exiting the muzzle.
Just a little pet peeve of mine...
' is feet
" is inches

Pretty sure you didn't mean to say a 12 foot rifle barrel. Them thar's MythBusters material!
 
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