[MajorTron]

I'm curious about the MP5K clones. Double-pinned lower; Potential for F/A Sear capable; Paddle-Mag Release; etc.

We've all seen the Zenith MKE and of course the Omega Series clones, but what about Brethren Arms or Atlantic Arms?

I've been told that unless I want a "Wilson Combat" (Parabellum Combat Systems) or "Ed Brown" (DJ Getz) custom-built MP5K, that Zenith, Omega, Brethren Arms, or Atlantic Arms systems would be my only choice.

I know everyone has their opinions, and everyone will feel one way or another, but I'd like to know why I should CONSIDER one over another, but I also want to hear from people with experience with Brethren Arms and what they can bring to the game.

I look forward to hearing from everyone. I would also like to preemptively thank you all for your time and your comments.

 

[tracerconnect]

You are trying to cover a whole lot of ground with your questions.
I will address two.
1. No, not all clones are the same.
2. Assuming you are in the US, you cannot buy a MP5K unless you are a dealer or law enforcement because a MP5K
is a machine gun and HK never sold any that a non-dealer can own in the US.
Yes I know a few guns have been remarked HK MP5K from some other model but I don't think that is what your question was.
I hope this provides some answers.

 

[MajorTron]

Thanks for your response.

I will clean up my questions.

 

[rickj1nd]

Dakota Tactical would be at the top of the list as well.

 

[MajorTron]

Absolutely, Dakota Tactical, would be another "Elite build" MP5K. I'd love to own one of these pistols, but the +$3k price tag is a little intimidating .

 

[N4KVE]

I'm curious about the MP5K clones. Double-pinned lower; Potential for F/A Sear capable; Paddle-Mag Release; etc.

We've all seen the Zenith MKE and of course the Omega Series clones, but what about Brethren Arms or Atlantic Arms?

You are confusing a clone, & a contract gun. Zenith, & Omega guns are "contract" guns made in real military factories with the blessings of HK. They supply military weapons to their armies. Brethern, & Atlantic guns are made in the USA from parts supplied by "who knows". While the quality might be OK, the Turks, & Pakis build military grade weapons. Sure, they might not have the prettiest finish, but they are built in a weapons factory. GARY

 

[MajorTron]

@N4KVE, thanks for your comment. I've been thinking of going with a Zenith series for that exact reason.

 

[Shockwave]

The only legal swing downs that aren't transferable machine guns (and priced $$$$$) are POF and Zenith (mke). They were importable because they also have full auto blocks welded in. The sp5k can be made full auto with the block removed, just like the Zenith, but you will probably have to add the shelf, so advantage sp5k in that regard.

For a K sized gun I am not sure why anyone would get anything other than the sp5k at this point. Maybe get sp5k for the K needs, and another builder for a full size or SD, something HK doesn't offer.


Shockwave

 

[Rican Havoc]

You are confusing a clone, & a contract gun. Zenith, & Omega guns are "contract" guns made in real military factories with the blessings of HK. They supply military weapons to their armies. Brethern, & Atlantic guns are made in the USA from parts supplied by "who knows". While the quality might be OK, the Turks, & Pakis build military grade weapons. Sure, they might not have the prettiest finish, but they are built in a weapons factory. GARY

No, Zenith does not make "contract" weapons. They are licensed clones. A contract manufacturer builds components or whole products FOR another manufacturer, who will sell them under their moniker. The only "blessing" would be in a licensing agreement, where HK could get a percentage of the sales.

The material and dimensional specs of these guns are not "HK approved" just because there is a licensing agreement in place. If it were, the overall quality would be much, much higher, as would the price structures. We have seen here at HKPro that these guns have come in with many of the very same failings as the early US-made clones. I'm talking about some real head-scratchers here, to include components that are made by methods and materials far removed from the German standard.

There is really no mystery about the origin of parts for US-made clones. Most are using RCM components extensively, a company that produces products that frankly outshine those of a Turkish factory, whether Military or not. Plenty of folks here have had great success with RCM components, extending far beyond the arrival dates of the MKE and POF guns.

 

[Mr.Maim]

No, Zenith does not make "contract" weapons. They are licensed clones. A contract manufacturer builds components or whole products FOR another manufacturer, who will sell them under their moniker. The only "blessing" would be in a licensing agreement, where HK could get a percentage of the sales.

The material and dimensional specs of these guns are not "HK approved" just because there is a licensing agreement in place. If it were, the overall quality would be much, much higher, as would the price structures. We have seen here at HKPro that these guns have come in with many of the very same failings as the early US-made clones. I'm talking about some real head-scratchers here, to include components that are made by methods and materials far removed from the German standard.

There is really no mystery about the origin of parts for US-made clones. Most are using RCM components extensively, a company that produces products that frankly outshine those of a Turkish factory, whether Military or not. Plenty of folks here have had great success with RCM components, extending far beyond the arrival dates of the MKE and POF guns.

Excellent answer and 100% on point.

To paraphrase a post by a former Heckler & Koch employee on this forum: a license to build HK-pattern firearms does not equate to German engineers walking around the factories in these countries (pakistan, turkey, wherever...) inspecting parts and processes to make sure they meet HK GmbH standards.

They don't.

 

[caf82313]

I would check out PCS aka ghilliebear for the Money and turn around time hard to beat and the after sale CS you get is priceless..................just my opinion.............

 

[hk21man]

All comes down to $.
If you want the best real deal get the new HK SP5K ($2500)
If you want the best for the low $ get a Zenith ($1600)
Nothing else compares (for the $) not even my premium builds.
MM

 

[rickj1nd]

For a K sized gun I am not sure why anyone would get anything other than the sp5k at this point.

Shockwave

Because... if you want to run a suppressor, have a paddle mag release, use a sear / FA carrier, etc, your spending even more money for the necessary parts, mods and a refinish on a brand new gun.

 

[rickj1nd]

We have seen here at HKPro that these guns have come in with many of the very same failings as the early US-made clones. I'm talking about some real head-scratchers here, to include components that are made by methods and materials far removed from the German standard.

There is really no mystery about the origin of parts for US-made clones. Most are using RCM components extensively, a company that produces products that frankly outshine those of a Turkish factory, whether Military or not. Plenty of folks here have had great success with RCM components, extending far beyond the arrival dates of the MKE and POF guns.

Amen brother!!

 

[N4KVE]

No, Zenith does not make "contract" weapons. They are licensed clones. A contract manufacturer builds components or whole products FOR another manufacturer, who will sell them under their moniker. The only "blessing" would be in a licensing agreement, where HK could get a percentage of the sales.

The material and dimensional specs of these guns are not "HK approved" just because there is a licensing agreement in place. If it were, the overall quality would be much, much higher, as would the price structures. We have seen here at HKPro that these guns have come in with many of the very same failings as the early US-made clones. I'm talking about some real head-scratchers here, to include components that are made by methods and materials far removed from the German standard.

There is really no mystery about the origin of parts for US-made clones. Most are using RCM components extensively, a company that produces products that frankly outshine those of a Turkish factory, whether Military or not. Plenty of folks here have had great success with RCM components, extending far beyond the arrival dates of the MKE and POF guns.

Well I'm confused here. Did the mfr's in Pakistan & Turkey just decide one day to build clones that looked like HK weapons from scratch, or did they pay HK, & get the plans & machinery from HK? While they may choose to not paint the guns as pretty as a HK, are the parts not built on machinery that was supplied by HK years ago. I have used POF, Rheinmetal, & FMP BCG's in my gun, & all worked the same as each other. OTOH, we have TB guns where the BCG's they supplied work fine, but HK BCG's will not work because the receivers were not in spec, but will work with their BCG's. GARY

 

[Mr.Maim]

Well I'm confused here. Did the mfr's in Pakistan & Turkey just decide one day to build clones that looked like HK weapons from scratch, or did they pay HK, & get the plans & machinery from HK? While they may choose to not paint the guns as pretty as a HK, are the parts not built on machinery that was supplied by HK years ago. I have used POF, Rheinmetal, & FMP BCG's in my gun, & all worked the same as each other. OTOH, we have TB guns where the BCG's they supplied work fine, but HK BCG's will not work because the receivers were not in spec, but will work with their BCG's. GARY

Licensed manufacturer. That means that they paid or continue to pay HK to make firearms based on HK's designs. HK machinery? I think not. Prove to me that there is one piece of HK machinery in Turkey or Pakistan. It cannot be proven but it can easily be disproven by comparing an HK receiver to an MKE or POF receiver.

 

[N4KVE]

Licensed manufacturer. That means that they paid or continue to pay HK to make firearms based on HK's design

This would still be a different classification from a clone made in the USA, right. While "contract" might be the wrong term, it's not a clone. So what would be a more appropriate term to describe a gun made with HK's plans, & blessings, if not "contract, or clone"? GARY

 

[warbirds]

Think about what your are paying for. The tangible things like the quality of the parts, and the non tangible like the skill of the builder. You may consider German parts to be superior to POF or RCM. That's for you to decide as obviously others have.

There is going to be tiers in the level of the craftsmanship. Your POF labor is going to be less skilled than your German, and their production guns will probably reflect that. We have some builders that build awesome "work" guns, while others tout ferrari like performance with a price to match.

I waited a long long time for a ferrari, before I pulled my parts and had ghilliebear build me one of his works of art, and I couldn't be happier with the build, the CS and the turn around. Just find something that makes you happy and then enjoy some popcorn while you read the crap that flies back and forth as people argue.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[Mr.Maim]

This would still be a different classification from a clone made in the USA, right. While "contract" might be the wrong term, it's not a clone. So what would be a more appropriate term to describe a gun made with HK's plans, & blessings, if not "contract, or clone"? GARY

Correct: Licensed Manufacturer is an entity(B) that pays another entity(A) to produce a product that entity(A) holds license or patent rights to. The firearms made here in the USA are not Licensed. HK's patent for the roller lock mechanism and any other aspect of the stamped steel roller locked platform of firearms have expired long ago. What HK is still able to enforce is Trademark rights. Many of the HK clone builders in the US were served letters to cease and desist a couple years ago because they were making firearms with "HK" and "MP5" etc., monikers that Heckler & Koch holds active Trademark rights to. They weren't told to stop making MP5-like firearms, they were told to stop marking them "HK" and "MP5". Other than that, anything goes because the patents have expired.

To be honest: "Licensed Manufacturer" is probably not correct in describing MKE, POF, and their ilk. I'd be willing to bet that there simply are no license agreements between Heckler & Koch GmbH and those manufacturers. Patents are up. They are not using trademarked brands or names. They are out of the jurisdiction of the EU and Germany. They're not doing anything different than any contract manufacturer in China does with any knock-off product sold at Wal-Mart. What MKE and POF are, are "Contract Manufacturers" in that they produce firearms of a certain quantity and style, under contract of/by importers of other countries like ATI and Zenith here in the USA.

It is the US importers that are perpetuating the myth of "Licensed Manufacturer". It sells more guns if you keep saying over, and over, and over, and over that they are licensed by Heckler & Koch.

 

[Mr.Maim]

Italian made Beretta's sell for the same as US made ones. German HK pistols sell for the same as US made ones. That Dodge pickup made in Mexico where workers make $87 a week sells for the same price as the US built ones where workers make $25 an hour. It's hard to put a price on an item depending on where it is made. GARY

Great examples! But all are just companies manufacturing their own products (not under contract or license). The difference between Beretta IT and Beretta US; HK DE and HK US; and a Dodge assembled in Georgia or in Nogales is simply a choice by those manufacturers based either on economics or the legalities of their industries. For international firearms manufacturers: the barrel import ban has had the biggest impact on the manufacturing location that the industry has seen since the AWB of 1994 that ceased the import of "assault weapons" and sprouted the domestic manufacture of the same firearms to continue to feed the US market.