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just purchased h&k 45c. any laser suggestions. thanks.
laser recommendations
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I have the crimson trace (I think it is cr201) which mounts on the rail. It is very easy to install and very accurate. I don't use it much though. I would rather practice without it. I will typically use it for around 20 rounds at the range to make sure it is aligned. I do practice with it and a dry cap a lot at home.
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Not to be an ass but I would say save your money. Lasers are more of a gimmick when it comes to practical shooting, you point shoot faster not to mention even some of the best lasers out there have a way of shooting themselves off zero. Now if its for a range dress up gun stick with either crimson trace or a streamlight....viridians are poo poo
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Yes, just practice your markmanship :19:
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While I agree insofar that a laser does not make up for poor marksmanship (nor should it ever serve to) I disagree in your assessment that it is a gimmick and not useful as a tool.
While a laser will not make up for poor grip and trigger control, it will allow a person to shoot with a decent degree of accuracy without having to align the iron sights. I am unsure of what type of "practical shooting" you are referring to, but if it comes to shooting a torso sized target at average self-defense distances under stress and possibly from an awkward position a laser can be used as an effective force multiplier.
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Can you expand on this, I was looking between a Streamlight TLR-2 and a Viridan X5L.
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The focus of the laser is hit or miss with viridian from all the experience I have had with them and all the ones I have seen amoungst a large group of shooters. I have seen examples that expand to the size of a 1 inch circle as little as 20 feet from the device...couple that with very poor performance in cold conditions and its just not worth the money asked when there are better products for less. Shame too seeing as green is much more detectable to the human eye than red
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Ah, thank you. I saw a guy at the local range the other day with a Viridan C5L and green laser was defiantly easy to pick up even in the bright range but they just don't feel like they are built as well as Surefire.
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I haven't seen a single green laser out perform a quality red laser in cold temps. In the cold climates like in Afghanistan and even here in Michigan as a civilian (just static shooting) every green laser I've used or played with had premature battery drain and have an impulse variance making the laser stream seem to pulsate. I know green is cool and all but it's not worth it to me. Also, since the green laser is so bright, it's a faster track back to you for the bad guy. I'm sure this has all been talked about before so I wont keep beating the drum.
YMMV
YMMV
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In self defense shooting a laser is rarely going to be an element in the equation. Most of the time people will be lucky not to fumble getting their gun from their holster let alone turning their laser on or properly gripping the pressure switch (fine motor skills being the first thing to go in high stress), and yes point shooting is faster than laser aided. As a range toy they are fun...I have one but the problem with them on defense weapons is they become a crutch and people rely on them when the reality is its the last thing they should trust their life to. Now I will concede that for someone who has lots of familiarity, trigger time, and experience they are not a hinderance on a carry gun.
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My 2 cents. Lasers will not make up for poor grip, trigger, or sight alignment issues... the fundamentals of shooting H&K4life is dead on with that one. I made the mistake of thinking that a laser would do this for me back when I was a rookie... If you don't have the fundamentals down solid I would say get those down first before you go adding a laser, understand this; Your dominant can only focus on one thing, either the laser or the front sight... For me I HATED that my eyes went straight to my laser (Streamlight TLR2s) on the target and I could never concentrate on a sight picture.
As far as what Ihsahn was saying. I don't think lasers are a gimmick. Larry Vickers wrote article about the usefulness of lasers and he spoke highly of them, but I do see what he's saying a little here. For the money and time spent keeping it at zero, wasting ammo... It's a little "gimmicky". I put 8 rounds from my HK45c in a 2 inch circle 15 feet away and that was point shooting, I think I used a proper sight picture once... I was just drawing from holster, pushing out and firing. Threats aren't slow, a threat (whether it be a dog, bad guy) will suffocate your space fast... So yea in close combat, point shooting will be what you're going to do anyway and it kinda makes the laser null.
Bottom line. If lasers weren't practical then Crimson, Viridian, Surefire etc wouldn't waste time making them. But youtube some highly experienced shooters and I can bet none of them are using lasers. Solid fundamentals will beat any kinda tactical equipment.
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A wide variety of opinions here. I have found merit in both arguments. I have a Viridian X5L v1 on my daily carry pistol. I have found it to be quite reliable and it holds its zero through a couple hundred rounds of fire or a couple months of carry time if I am not getting to a range as often as I like. As for the pulsing, the X5L allows you to set it to steady beam, slow pulse, or rapid pulse. I like mine on rapid pulse; it is just a little easier for me to see and pick up quickly.
How useful in combat? After all, this is my carry gun. I would not dream of attempting to activate and acquire the laser if an adversary were in pissing distance of me. But if there were more space between us, and especially if there were any possibility of harm to someone else from a missed shot, then the laser would be my choice. It has the added benefit in this scenario that you get less tunnel vision effect and can keep more of your peripheral vision and situational awareness than in focusing a sight picture on an adversary further away.
I personally don't mind the traceback effect of the green laser either. I can even see where it might be an advantage; for me personally as a civilian who carries his pistol to protect himself and his loved ones, the ideal scenario would be that the presentation of the firearm might under some circumstances be enough to stop an assailant without having to fire. If the guy running at me across a parking lot is stopped in his tracks when he sees that green finger pointing at his chest, I would call it a win. Same if someone breaks in my living room window in the middle of the night and sees that green beam coming at him from the top of the staircase. I know that I have to be prepared to fire my pistol under any circumstances that warrant the use of deadly force, but I would still prefer not to unless it were the only reasonable way for a fat bald asthmatic guy to prevent terrible harm to befall him or his family.
I looked at a lot of different lasers and lights before I went with the X5L. As a laser and tactical light combo it is a very compact and slim design, well suited for concealed carry (the first one is anyway; the new one does not look quite as CC friendly) and I have had very reliable performance--although it does like a pretty steady diet of batteries. My only gripe was that I had to shave down the side-mounted activation buttons so it wouldn't turn on when I sat down and make my butt start flashing.
How useful in combat? After all, this is my carry gun. I would not dream of attempting to activate and acquire the laser if an adversary were in pissing distance of me. But if there were more space between us, and especially if there were any possibility of harm to someone else from a missed shot, then the laser would be my choice. It has the added benefit in this scenario that you get less tunnel vision effect and can keep more of your peripheral vision and situational awareness than in focusing a sight picture on an adversary further away.
I personally don't mind the traceback effect of the green laser either. I can even see where it might be an advantage; for me personally as a civilian who carries his pistol to protect himself and his loved ones, the ideal scenario would be that the presentation of the firearm might under some circumstances be enough to stop an assailant without having to fire. If the guy running at me across a parking lot is stopped in his tracks when he sees that green finger pointing at his chest, I would call it a win. Same if someone breaks in my living room window in the middle of the night and sees that green beam coming at him from the top of the staircase. I know that I have to be prepared to fire my pistol under any circumstances that warrant the use of deadly force, but I would still prefer not to unless it were the only reasonable way for a fat bald asthmatic guy to prevent terrible harm to befall him or his family.
I looked at a lot of different lasers and lights before I went with the X5L. As a laser and tactical light combo it is a very compact and slim design, well suited for concealed carry (the first one is anyway; the new one does not look quite as CC friendly) and I have had very reliable performance--although it does like a pretty steady diet of batteries. My only gripe was that I had to shave down the side-mounted activation buttons so it wouldn't turn on when I sat down and make my butt start flashing.
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In no way am I trying to start some flame war over this just wanted to say they make them because the general population buys them. For a lot of people its a "cool" thing to have on your gun and the market followed...much like this god awful zombie BS that has oversaturated the firearm world in recent times (total side note, if HK ever makes a zombie anything I will cry and mourn their passing). But you are spot on Darebear with your assessment of threat response, everything happens fast.
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Hornady should be ashamed of themselves... Zombie ammo? Seriously? I like a good time just like anyone else and yea I've given thought to some kind, any kind of threat to our health being unleashed (i.e. bio warfare) but to actually make and market Zombie ammo... I have no words. THAT is a clear cut example that they make what we will buy.
Zombie ammo is sold to the same guys who put Punisher grips on their pistol and wear Infidel t-shirts. Posers and wannabes.
I saw some Zombie ammo still on the shelf last month. Maybe the Punisher crowd is tired of it? Or maybe because no one can see the little green tip when the ammo is in the weapon? This is the same stuff as Critical Defense with a different color tip, a competent self defense cartridge in some calibers.
I'm not a general fan of lasers but do like a light at 0200. Once zeroed my C5L was very accurate out to 25 yards -- when it would turn on.
-- Chuck
I saw some Zombie ammo still on the shelf last month. Maybe the Punisher crowd is tired of it? Or maybe because no one can see the little green tip when the ammo is in the weapon? This is the same stuff as Critical Defense with a different color tip, a competent self defense cartridge in some calibers.
I'm not a general fan of lasers but do like a light at 0200. Once zeroed my C5L was very accurate out to 25 yards -- when it would turn on.
-- Chuck
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Since we're talking about wannabe's and zombies I have to say that using the "Zombie" craze to supply, enforce and fortify our personal safety and that of our communities is very effective in the way that the term zombie could be substituted for mass hysteria or governmental break down.
Do we need green tipped ammo? No, is it good marketing to help normalize the idea that being prepared is not such an awful thing.
I have voluntarily donated my personal resources, time & money to many of the natural disasters in the US to include Kartina over the last 20 years and if there is one thing I learned it's that more people need to be more prepared. I would like to see more people get with the "zombie" craze so long as it teaches them to know how to be more self sufficient.
No educated or wise man actually thinks Zombies will come to eat their brain but a zombie can come in many forms, Watts riots, Katrina Looters or the government coming to collect your guns in the name of homeland security.
Do we need green tipped ammo? No, is it good marketing to help normalize the idea that being prepared is not such an awful thing.
I have voluntarily donated my personal resources, time & money to many of the natural disasters in the US to include Kartina over the last 20 years and if there is one thing I learned it's that more people need to be more prepared. I would like to see more people get with the "zombie" craze so long as it teaches them to know how to be more self sufficient.
No educated or wise man actually thinks Zombies will come to eat their brain but a zombie can come in many forms, Watts riots, Katrina Looters or the government coming to collect your guns in the name of homeland security.
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Hmm, sorry about totally derailing this topic.
Wolvee I have no doubt we were all well aware that it was a use of symbolizm. Perparedness is a good thing but this useage teaches them nothing, it has become a corporate incentive to charge more green colored ARs and shotguns with a green Z engraved on them. The zombie thing might have been cool to me when I was twelve, but as I creep up on 30 now it just strikes of stupidity. Manufactures are cashing in on the consumer "zombies" at the price of all of our credibility. I'm personally embarrased everytime I need to explain any of this to those I introduce to firearms whenever we visit a local shop. But hey i guess the $80 bleeding zombie targets and AR mounted chainsaw that debuted at this years SHOT show are a good learning tool
Wolvee I have no doubt we were all well aware that it was a use of symbolizm. Perparedness is a good thing but this useage teaches them nothing, it has become a corporate incentive to charge more green colored ARs and shotguns with a green Z engraved on them. The zombie thing might have been cool to me when I was twelve, but as I creep up on 30 now it just strikes of stupidity. Manufactures are cashing in on the consumer "zombies" at the price of all of our credibility. I'm personally embarrased everytime I need to explain any of this to those I introduce to firearms whenever we visit a local shop. But hey i guess the $80 bleeding zombie targets and AR mounted chainsaw that debuted at this years SHOT show are a good learning tool
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For those that don't know, Veridian isn't the only one out there that makes green lasers. Check any new 2012 surefire catalog and you will see that they make them too. As well as having models that do both red and green. And IMHO the best white light source maker. 500 Lumens on the X-300 Ultra. Thats just plain blinding-in a good way!
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