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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What are the differences between the two? Could someone get into the technical difference? Which do you prefer? I have also heard rumors that there are two different variations of the match trigger that HK sold.

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The LEM trigger is DAO while the match trigger a lightened DA/SA.
 

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HK LEM versus Match triggers

What are the differences between the two? Could someone get into the technical difference? Which do you prefer? I have also heard rumors that there are two different variations of the match trigger that HK sold.

Thanks
Scan:

The Match trigger offered by HK is simply an enhanced variant of the standard SA/DA USP trigger package. It provides a slightly reduced trigger pull and improved trigger feel (improved release and "crispness", reduced "creep"). This improvement comes from different parts that include a different hammer spring and trigger with adjustable trigger stop, as well as other miscellaneous parts. Beware of these trigger stops as they have been known to unscrew with use and can block the release of the hammer, especially in the longer DA mode. It is best to Loctite (blue) it in place once correctly adjusted. The two types you may be referring to are that there is a separate version for full size and compact USP models.

The LEM package was developed to help HK compete with the better quality light DAO pulls on the market (like SIG and Beretta) and especially the "Safe Action" pulls of the striker-fired guns like Glock. HK lost various large pistol bids to Glock (FBI, USCP) simply due to the comparatively poor trigger pull quality of the conventional HK DAO trigger (10-14 pounds and LOTS of travel) compared to the short, light “shootable” Glock trigger pull. In response the LEM was developed by the brilliant HK designer of the P7, USP, MK23, G36, MP7 and other HK weapons, Helmut Weldle, based upon numerous requests from HK Defense in efforts that lead to the adoption of the USP40 Compact LEM by INS. A variant of the LEM system is available in the P2000, P200SK and P30 also and has been warmly welcomed by the community. The amazing fact is Weldle was able to offer such a vast improvement to the trigger pull without any need to modify the major components of the handgun. Just drop in the LEM pieces and off you go.

The HK LEM package is a drop-in package of up to 9 parts that convert any existing USP or USP Compact variant (packages vary by USP model) into a DAO function. In the LEM the rearward movement of the slide cocks an internal "cocking piece" within the hammer and in turn compresses the hammer spring that remains cocked after the slide returns forward into battery. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is drawn rearward against the relatively light smooth trigger pull caused only by the trigger return spring (can be set at @ 5.5 or 8.5 pounds) until the cocking piece is released instead of against the 10-14 pound hammer spring in conventional DA and DAO systems. This drives the hammer forward under full power and fires the chambered round. The slide then recocks the cocking piece and hammer spring for the next shot.

It is ironic that in the LEM system heavier springs are added yet the trigger pull is reduced down to as low as 5 pounds. The trigger pull is far better than the standard DAO trigger so in many cases accuracy of the shooter/gun combo is improved. Safety in the system comes from the long trigger pull of any DAO system as there is normally no external safety nor does the LEM require a decocking function before holstering as the external hammer is always uncocked until the trigger is pulled. It is possible to add a manual M1911-style thumb safety (left, right or ambi) as an option to a USP equipped with LEM parts for additional safety. No worries on the cocking piece being accidentally released during rough handing as the sear and firing pin safety block its movement and all HK pistols are subjected to and must pass a 1.5 meter drop test, to include the LEM. Tens of thousands are in service in the US with excellent results.

So in essence the LEM is a DA Only pistol that provides a far lighter and smoother trigger pull because the shooter does not have to pull the trigger rearward against the normal 10-14 pound hammer spring. The hammer spring is already cocked by the movement of the slide during loading or firing. It's like having a "power assisted" DAO trigger system. Also once unique to the HK LEM is the fact that the pistol still retains a double strike capability (a means to restrike a unfired round w/o having to retract the slide as is the case on safe-action and some other DAO guns like the LDA from ParaOrdnance) and the LEM has a trigger reset of only @ ¼” that helps speed multiple shots. A conventional DAO system often requires that the trigger be fully released before the next round can be fired, slowing down follow up shots.

If you want the best possible trigger pull for competition firing the SA mode available in a USP Match trigger would be the best choice. Of course that will mean you will have to deal with a manual safety to insure safe operation and carry.

If you want faster response time (w/o the need to operate a manual safety or decocking lever) for defense type shooting and are willing to sacrifice slightly in trigger pull quality then the LEM is a good choice.

Both have been extensively tested to more than 10,000 rounds on many occasions and are highly reliable and safe when properly installed by a competent HK-training gunsmith.

G3Kurz
 

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..... The two types you may be referring to are that there is a separate version for full size and compact USP models. .....
I wasn't aware of a compact version?

Anyway, G3Kurz pretty well has the technical side covered. In layman's terms, the 2 trigger systems are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. The match system is tuned up for competition, while the LEM is a set up for combat that is designed for the simplest operation, while keeping the legal crowd happy.

I've heard recently, that there is something called a 'combat competition' model of USP's that is a hybrid of the two systems. I'm still searching for more info on that one.
 

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I don't have the LEM trigger myself and I am still trying to understand how it works. After initially squeezing the trigger and the initial firing/slide actuation-rechambering, if you do not release the trigger completely, is the gun in a SA condition? Is there an interim SA position before the trigger is in DA again?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for all the replies. One thing that I did notice about the match trigger variants is that the newer version has a different catch. Does anyone know what improvements this new catch makes compared to the older match trigger catch? What was the cut off dates when the new catch was introduced? How can I tell the difference between a new catch and old catch, visually?

Here is what I am talking about mentioned in the FAQ's:



What's a Match Trigger? It is a drop in kit from HK that consist of a trigger w/overtravel stop, trigger return spring, hammer spring, hammer, and sear spring. It will lower the weight of the pull, but the reset is still long. There is now two version of the Match trigger. HK has made a change to the Catch (part 25). The new Match trigger will require the new Catch or it will not work.
 

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The LEM trigger is a bit wacky. It is similar to the Para LDA in that basically there is a two part hammer. There's the physical part that you see that hits the firing pin. There's another part that engages the sear and hammer spring. When you first rack the slide, it cocks the second part so the hammer spring is compressed, but the other half of the hammer is in the forward position. When you pull the trigger, the hammer comes back then it releases the sear and the hammer spring pushes on both parts to strike the firing pin.

On the LEM, if you release the trigger to the first click, the trigger is reset and if you pull it immediately, it basically fires in single action. If you release the trigger fully, the hammer comes back forward and you have a double action pull again. The 1st reset on the LEM is actually shorter than the match trigger.

As for which one is better, really depends on what your shooting style is. If take up and trigger break are two separate processes when you pull the trigger, you are better off with the match trigger. If you can move your finger smoothly throughout the entire travel, either one will work.
 

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Scan:

The Match trigger offered by HK is simply an enhanced variant of the standard SA/DA USP trigger package. It provides a slightly reduced trigger pull and improved trigger feel (improved release and "crispness", reduced "creep"). This improvement comes from different parts that include a different hammer spring and trigger with adjustable trigger stop, as well as other miscellaneous parts. Beware of these trigger stops as they have been known to unscrew with use and can block the release of the hammer, especially in the longer DA mode. It is best to Loctite (blue) it in place once correctly adjusted. The two types you may be referring to are that there is a separate version for full size and compact USP models.

The LEM package was developed to help HK compete with the better quality light DAO pulls on the market (like SIG and Beretta) and especially the "Safe Action" pulls of the striker-fired guns like Glock. HK lost various large pistol bids to Glock (FBI, USCP) simply due to the comparatively poor trigger pull quality of the conventional HK DAO trigger (10-14 pounds and LOTS of travel) compared to the short, light “shootable” Glock trigger pull. In response the LEM was developed by the brilliant HK designer of the P7, USP, MK23, G36, MP7 and other HK weapons, Helmut Weldle, based upon numerous requests from HK Defense in efforts that lead to the adoption of the USP40 Compact LEM by INS. A variant of the LEM system is available in the P2000, P200SK and P30 also and has been warmly welcomed by the community. The amazing fact is Weldle was able to offer such a vast improvement to the trigger pull without any need to modify the major components of the handgun. Just drop in the LEM pieces and off you go.

The HK LEM package is a drop-in package of up to 9 parts that convert any existing USP or USP Compact variant (packages vary by USP model) into a DAO function. In the LEM the rearward movement of the slide cocks an internal "cocking piece" within the hammer and in turn compresses the hammer spring that remains cocked after the slide returns forward into battery. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is drawn rearward against the relatively light smooth trigger pull caused only by the trigger return spring (can be set at @ 5.5 or 8.5 pounds) until the cocking piece is released instead of against the 10-14 pound hammer spring in conventional DA and DAO systems. This drives the hammer forward under full power and fires the chambered round. The slide then recocks the cocking piece and hammer spring for the next shot.

It is ironic that in the LEM system heavier springs are added yet the trigger pull is reduced down to as low as 5 pounds. The trigger pull is far better than the standard DAO trigger so in many cases accuracy of the shooter/gun combo is improved. Safety in the system comes from the long trigger pull of any DAO system as there is normally no external safety nor does the LEM require a decocking function before holstering as the external hammer is always uncocked until the trigger is pulled. It is possible to add a manual M1911-style thumb safety (left, right or ambi) as an option to a USP equipped with LEM parts for additional safety. No worries on the cocking piece being accidentally released during rough handing as the sear and firing pin safety block its movement and all HK pistols are subjected to and must pass a 1.5 meter drop test, to include the LEM. Tens of thousands are in service in the US with excellent results.

So in essence the LEM is a DA Only pistol that provides a far lighter and smoother trigger pull because the shooter does not have to pull the trigger rearward against the normal 10-14 pound hammer spring. The hammer spring is already cocked by the movement of the slide during loading or firing. It's like having a "power assisted" DAO trigger system. Also once unique to the HK LEM is the fact that the pistol still retains a double strike capability (a means to restrike a unfired round w/o having to retract the slide as is the case on safe-action and some other DAO guns like the LDA from ParaOrdnance) and the LEM has a trigger reset of only @ ¼” that helps speed multiple shots. A conventional DAO system often requires that the trigger be fully released before the next round can be fired, slowing down follow up shots.

If you want the best possible trigger pull for competition firing the SA mode available in a USP Match trigger would be the best choice. Of course that will mean you will have to deal with a manual safety to insure safe operation and carry.

If you want faster response time (w/o the need to operate a manual safety or decocking lever) for defense type shooting and are willing to sacrifice slightly in trigger pull quality then the LEM is a good choice.

Both have been extensively tested to more than 10,000 rounds on many occasions and are highly reliable and safe when properly installed by a competent HK-training gunsmith.

G3Kurz
I have nothing to add on this one.
It's written really good.
Best regards.:)
 

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Can the USP match trigger be adjusted to less than 5lbs? The older USPs definitely need some improvement in the trigger department. Compared to my Mark 23s and my AE+ date code USPs, my KF date code USP trigger isn't in the same league and I was thinking about dropping the match trigger in to even things up.
 

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I have several HK's in 45 and 9mm and have never tried the LEM. I have decided that a P2000 LEM in .40SW will be my next gun and should be a great addition to the collection. If I were to get LEM added to my other HK's, I think that I would keep the safety attached like Big Bore does. That seems like it would be the best of both worlds.
 

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Scan:

The Match trigger offered by HK is simply an enhanced variant of the standard SA/DA USP trigger package. It provides a slightly reduced trigger pull and improved trigger feel (improved release and "crispness", reduced "creep"). This improvement comes from different parts that include a different hammer spring and trigger with adjustable trigger stop, as well as other miscellaneous parts. Beware of these trigger stops as they have been known to unscrew with use and can block the release of the hammer, especially in the longer DA mode. It is best to Loctite (blue) it in place once correctly adjusted. The two types you may be referring to are that there is a separate version for full size and compact USP models.

The LEM package was developed to help HK compete with the better quality light DAO pulls on the market (like SIG and Beretta) and especially the "Safe Action" pulls of the striker-fired guns like Glock. HK lost various large pistol bids to Glock (FBI, USCP) simply due to the comparatively poor trigger pull quality of the conventional HK DAO trigger (10-14 pounds and LOTS of travel) compared to the short, light “shootable” Glock trigger pull. In response the LEM was developed by the brilliant HK designer of the P7, USP, MK23, G36, MP7 and other HK weapons, Helmut Weldle, based upon numerous requests from HK Defense in efforts that lead to the adoption of the USP40 Compact LEM by INS. A variant of the LEM system is available in the P2000, P200SK and P30 also and has been warmly welcomed by the community. The amazing fact is Weldle was able to offer such a vast improvement to the trigger pull without any need to modify the major components of the handgun. Just drop in the LEM pieces and off you go.

The HK LEM package is a drop-in package of up to 9 parts that convert any existing USP or USP Compact variant (packages vary by USP model) into a DAO function. In the LEM the rearward movement of the slide cocks an internal "cocking piece" within the hammer and in turn compresses the hammer spring that remains cocked after the slide returns forward into battery. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is drawn rearward against the relatively light smooth trigger pull caused only by the trigger return spring (can be set at @ 5.5 or 8.5 pounds) until the cocking piece is released instead of against the 10-14 pound hammer spring in conventional DA and DAO systems. This drives the hammer forward under full power and fires the chambered round. The slide then recocks the cocking piece and hammer spring for the next shot.

It is ironic that in the LEM system heavier springs are added yet the trigger pull is reduced down to as low as 5 pounds. The trigger pull is far better than the standard DAO trigger so in many cases accuracy of the shooter/gun combo is improved. Safety in the system comes from the long trigger pull of any DAO system as there is normally no external safety nor does the LEM require a decocking function before holstering as the external hammer is always uncocked until the trigger is pulled. It is possible to add a manual M1911-style thumb safety (left, right or ambi) as an option to a USP equipped with LEM parts for additional safety. No worries on the cocking piece being accidentally released during rough handing as the sear and firing pin safety block its movement and all HK pistols are subjected to and must pass a 1.5 meter drop test, to include the LEM. Tens of thousands are in service in the US with excellent results.

So in essence the LEM is a DA Only pistol that provides a far lighter and smoother trigger pull because the shooter does not have to pull the trigger rearward against the normal 10-14 pound hammer spring. The hammer spring is already cocked by the movement of the slide during loading or firing. It's like having a "power assisted" DAO trigger system. Also once unique to the HK LEM is the fact that the pistol still retains a double strike capability (a means to restrike a unfired round w/o having to retract the slide as is the case on safe-action and some other DAO guns like the LDA from ParaOrdnance) and the LEM has a trigger reset of only @ ¼” that helps speed multiple shots. A conventional DAO system often requires that the trigger be fully released before the next round can be fired, slowing down follow up shots.

If you want the best possible trigger pull for competition firing the SA mode available in a USP Match trigger would be the best choice. Of course that will mean you will have to deal with a manual safety to insure safe operation and carry.

If you want faster response time (w/o the need to operate a manual safety or decocking lever) for defense type shooting and are willing to sacrifice slightly in trigger pull quality then the LEM is a good choice.

Both have been extensively tested to more than 10,000 rounds on many occasions and are highly reliable and safe when properly installed by a competent HK-training gunsmith.

G3Kurz

Could you and Scooter also elaborate on the LEM combat competition trigger. The hybrid of the Match and LEM trigger. Thanks.
 

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KF and earlier dated models will not work with the current match kits. Email me and I can set you up with a nice pull.

Thanks,
Bill
 

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hey not really trying to hijack the OP but i picked up my usp45c this morning and was curious if its worth it to throw the match trigger kit in it, or better off not. at some point i want
to CCW the gun.
 

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Bringing back a thread from 2008, as you have done. For a question about whether or not you should do something. Plenty of much more current threads you could ask in, or.. dare I say it? Make your own thread and ask your specific question, which has nothing to do with this conversation from half a decade ago.
 
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