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Discussion Starter #1
I'm new to this forum and to Guns. Im applying for my LTC-A and from what i heard it is very hard in this state. Currently, is there any HK that can be bought in the state, and these pre-banned does that mean only older guns are available?

Any helpful advice would be appreciated.

-LT
 

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Unless you are LE the only H&K currently approved for sale are the P2000 & P2000SK in .357. I just checked the latest Approved Firearms Roster 06-2007 and that is all that is listed.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
LE is allowed to buy H&K in Mass? So lets say if they buy one, they can sell it me and it would be legal?

I found some places in MA that is selling theUSPc in 40 s&w. The name of the place is Tackle Unlimited and here is the LINK

Thanks for any help,

LT
 

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You can only purchase HK handguns that have been registered in state prior to October 1998. Most of the dealers in state do not carry many pre ban HK pistols. There are several dealers that keep pre ban USP’s on hand. You will pay a premium for a Mass preban. USED USP full size will run you $750 to $1100. USP compacts $800- $1400. I recently picked up a P7 PSP for $1100, which seems like a rip off compared to the recent influx from Germany. Keep in mind they must have been registered in state by Oct 1998 so we cannot get the recent imports.

The question was posed, can you have a police officer buy you one and then purchase it from him/ her? Well this is tricky. There is no dealer that would want to handle this. In a notice dated 2/15/02. If you look up 501 CMR 7.03 you will find that the penalties are 1-10 years in prison and/or up to $10,000 in fines and/or loss of license.
Pursuant to the requirements of 501 CMR 7.03, firearms dealers should note the following warning:
TRANSFERS OF HANDGUNS ARE ALSO SUBJECT TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S HANDGUN SALES REGULATIONS, 940 C.M.R. 16.00 ET SEQ. FIREARMS ON THIS ROSTER DO NOT NECESSARILY COMPLY WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S HANDGUN SALES REGULATIONS. INFORMATION ABOUT THOSE REGULATIONS CAN BE OBTAINED FROM THE OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND CAN BE ACCESSED ON THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S WEBSITE."
However you might be able to do a personal transfer on an FA 10 form. The same holds true with out of state transfers.

If an out of state resident (I believe they would have to have lived out of state for at least two years) moves into this state they are allowed to have any firearm (within the limits of the law) they bring in. The deal is that they will not be able to sell any handgun that was not registered in state prior to 1998 to a dealer. However you might be able to do a personal transfer on an FA 10 form.

Now back to the P2000 on THE LIST there are two lists for state approval.
Just because it makes it on one list it does not guarantee it can be sold in state. However HK is working at getting the sales of some of their product to occur in Mass. On that topic, I posted this a few weeks ago http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62203

If this all seems confusing it is! Even to the dealers. Most of these ridiculous laws were not done through the normal legislative process, but through consumer protection. It circumvented the legal process and was implemented to “protect the firearms consumer from junk handguns”!!!!!! Like HK’s are junk??!!!!!!!!!!

To be safe use this sight as a reference and a link to the state laws.
http://fsguns.com/malawsandregs.html
It is a local shop and is one of the best shops in the state. If you look at the new handguns section it will let you know what NEW PRODUCTION handguns can be bought in this state. You will find that the choices are very limited.

I know it is damn confusing but I hope this was helpful. This is the best in a nutshell explanation I could come up with. :510: :510: :510: :510: :510: :510: :510: :510: :510: :510: :510: :510:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
No, that was helpful...Just frustrating that this state is so strict. I talked to a few different people and its like everyone has a different answer or confused about the topic.

What guns do you own USMC and do you thing a USP that is 10 years old is as good as a new one?? I'm a little reluctant to make my first purchase a 10 year old gun, unless i can change everything but the serial number and make it brand new, but after 10 years it could be outdated.

And what about SMG or AR? It must be impossible to get the HK 416 or G36k here.

Again, thanks for helping this new gun noob in mass.

-LT
 

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No, that was helpful...Just frustrating that this state is so strict. I talked to a few different people and its like everyone has a different answer or confused about the topic.

What guns do you own USMC and do you thing a USP that is 10 years old is as good as a new one?? I'm a little reluctant to make my first purchase a 10 year old gun, unless i can change everything but the serial number and make it brand new, but after 10 years it could be outdated.

And what about SMG or AR? It must be impossible to get the HK 416 or G36k here.

Again, thanks for helping this new gun noob in mass.

-LT

Yes frustrating it is, look at our location.....mASS!
I have a little of this and that. You should have no problem with a used USP. If you are looking for a close to new in box you may have to shop a little.

Some places to look for USP's or USP Compacts are:

Tombstone Trading Post in Brookfield
Tackle Unlimited in Stoughton
Zero Hour Arms in Easton
I have bought from these gentile men in the past and all are good guys.
If you are looking for near mint you will need to look at each pistol. The top two dealers usually have items on Gun Broker and list them as Mass Compliant.
It may give you a good preview. I know as of a few weeks ago Tombstone had several USP's and a couple of Compacts.
Another person to talk with for USP's and any type of P7 pistol is listed in this previous post http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47259

You should have no problem with a ten-year-old HK. They are one of if not the best manufacturer out there. Unreal reliability. The USP is an awesome pistol. Do not be afraid that it has some years on it. Again you need to shop and do a careful inspection of the pistol.
As far as SMG and Rifles… We in this state we still follow the old federal Assault Weapon Ban. Again if you can find it as a preban registered in state you can get it. As long as you are licensed to own it.

:D
 
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Yes frustrating it is, look at our location.....mASS!
As far as SMG and Rifles… We in this state we still follow the old federal Assault Weapon Ban. Again if you can find it as a preban registered in state you can get it. As long as you are licensed to own it.

:D
That's not the way the AWB in MA works. It's totally different than the handguns, in the sense that the "pre-ban" long guns are NOT required to have been registered in state prior to Sept 1994. You can import a pre-Sept 13, 1994 long gun into MA from anywhere in the country completely legally. But beware of the magazines included with them. The full-cap mags must also be pre-9-13-94 to be legal here, too!

When the handgun laws went into effect in 1998, the "registered in state" provision was not included in there. It was added later, but it's still very debatable as to whether that's even an issue anymore. When I contacted the AG's office, they told me that the way the Attorney General is "currently enforcing the Consumer Protection Act" was that it only pertains to post-10-21-98 handguns. When I asked in an e-mail if any handgun, whether it's on the DPS list or meets the AG's regs or not, could be imported if it was manuactured on or before 10-21-98, the answer was "yes". According to the response I received, the only regulated handguns in MA are those made after the 10-21-98 cutoff. If they were made before that, they can be bought, sold or even imported into the state. Whether dealers will do the transfer for you or not is totally up to their own policy. But if they contact the AG for a clairification, they would see that it's OK.

For example, consider all the 2nd Gen Glocks available now. They are not approved by the AG, but it just doesn't matter, since they were all made on or before 10-21-98. Glock takes them in trade from law enforcement agencies all over the country, and resells them all over the country, including in MA.

The AG intentionally left the handgun "Consumer Protection Act" very vague. That's why there is no actual list of what handguns meet the Office's criteria. That way, the current or any future AG can change his/her mind at any time as to what meets or fails to meet their standards. That's another reason why every response I received from the AG's Office always started with "The Attorney General is currently enforcing the Consumer Protection Act........." "Currently Enforcing" are the key words here.

Another issue is the way the AG's office does not "approve" any handgun design or modification. The way the AG's Office explained it to me is that they do not keep a list of what handguns meet their requirements. They "leave it up to the manufacturer to meet the requirements".

And an example of this: Glock. Glock wanted to sell their new handguns in MA. They submitted their pistols to the DPS for testing, which they easily passes, as do most handguns. Then, they make the necessary modifications to make the AG happy. Those included a 2nd "tamperproof" serial number (gee, that makes the "consumer" much "safer", huh?), installed their 10lb NY-1 disconnector (the AG requires the pistol to have either a 10lb trigger pull or a grip diameter large enough so an average child of 5? years old cannot fire it), and added a tab to their extractor to act as a "loaded chamber indicator", similar to the Ruger MKIII pistol. The AG requires either a loaded chamber indicator or a magazine disconnect.

Glock submitted their modifications to the AG's office and did not hear anything after 90 days. Since the AG's office "leaves it up to the manufacturer" to meet their requirements and does not approve a design, they began selling them in good faith, after making these mods. Then, after many new, MA modified Glocks were sold (I do not know the exact number), the AG sends a letter to Glock stating that their loaded chamber indicator does not meet his criteria and they must immediately discontinue all sales of new pistols in MA. And to top it all off, they had to offer all MA residents who purchased a new Glock a full refund!

The gun owners were under no obligation to accept the refund, since it's totally legal to possess, or even transfer on an FA-10 state form, a "non-compliant" handgun. The only penalties which there are for transferring a "non-compliant" handgun are for a licensed dealer (01FFL holder). The licensee is subject to a $10,000 PER GUN fine for transferring a "non-compliant" handgun! With fines like that, I can totally understand why many dealers are overly cautious as to what they import or sell, even though they refuse many legal sales.

It's so complicated that I probably totally confused you instead of clairifying anything, but I tried!
 

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To quote Hawglegg 44 "That's not the way the AWB in MA works. It's totally different than the handguns, in the sense that the "pre-ban" long guns are NOT required to have been registered in state prior to Sept 1994. You can import a pre-Sept 13, 1994 long gun into MA from anywhere in the country completely legally. But beware of the magazines included with them. The full-cap mags must also be pre-9-13-94 to be legal here, too!"

On my above post I was referring to the Rifle AWB § 131M. Assault weapon or large capacity feeding device not lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994; sale, transfer or possession; punishment
No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. Whoever not being licensed under the provisions of section 122 violates the provisions of this section shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (i) the possession by a law enforcement officer for purposes of law enforcement; or (ii) the possession by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving such a weapon or feeding device from such agency upon retirement.
We cannot buy these style rifles as new production due to the state law. I understand that the law does not specifically state that pre ban rifles can not be brought into the state but I have found several dealers that said they would not take a pre ban rifle in from out of state for a transfer. They have told me it was just too much of a gray area. http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm

Be aware that there are two "lists" If a handgun is on the Roster List it does not necessarily meet the Consumer Protection regulations,
For example: New Glocks are on the Roster List but are NOT in compliance with the REGULATIONS
therefore they can't be sold as new. The same goes for Para-Ordnance, Kahr, HK,Ruger semi-auto pistols and others.


I bought a Glock 27 during that small window in which the AG list stated Glocks were acceptable. Be leery my friend because there are two lists that the firearm needs to be approved on prior to an actual "legal" sale. I went to trade in the aforementioned 27 for a USP .40 cal and when the dealer ran the serial he refused the trade it in due to the fact the pistol was not Mass compliant. I bought it from a reputable dealer under the guise that it was 100% legal and the dealer said he could not touch it! I had carried this side arm thinking I was 100% legal to do so, but in reality if I had used this sidearm in self-protection I could have ended up in jail for illegal possession of a firearm. A firearm I bought from a dealer!!!!! You are correct in saying that it can technically be possesed legally however you know darn well a Prosecutor would paint a picture that would make you look like criminal. I brought it back to the dealer I bought it from and got a Sig 220 on an even trade. You need to be very careful in this state. Just because a dealer sells it to you does not mean it is legal to own in mASS.

Here is the AG’s hand gun web page link http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=cagoterminal&L=3&L0=Home&L1=Government&L2=AG's+Regulations&sid=Cago&b=terminalcontent&f=government_Regulations_940CMR16&csid=Cago

Here is the web link for THE LIST http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/aprroved_firearms_roster_jun_2007.pdf

I know this whole thing is a mess!!! It is tough that we all get different stories from different sources but I believe the state wants it to be this way. If the laws create confusion and deter manufactures, supply houses, dealers, and the consumer than they have done what they are setting out to do…….ban our Second Amendment right through the back door. We need to stick together to try and decipher this ka ka pile we are standing in!

Oh yea, check out the link for THE LIST it has the P2000 and the P2000 SK .357 Sig in it!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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The law about the large capacity feeding devices says that they must be legally possessed prior to Sept 13, 1994. The reason it says that is that they copied the original Federal AWB. Do a little research on it, and you'll see that MA's top firearms attorneys agree that as long as the magazine was legally possessed anywhere in the country, it's legal for sale in MA. Same goes for pre-ban long guns.

I've heard that dealers out in E. Mass are very anal about the MA laws and get overcautious about selling completely legal firearms and magazines. Out here in W. Mass, the dealers follow the laws, not what they read into the laws.

And, no, there are NOT two lists. There's the DPS list, then there's the AG's regulations. No handgun can be sold unless it is both on the list AND meets the AG's regs, but the AG does NOT keep a list and will NOT tell anyone what meets the CPA requirements. I wish there really were the two lists you refer to, but there's not. If you do have a 2nd list as to what meets the AG's requirements, please post it here.

You were honestly worried about carrying the G27 that was not MA "compliant"? Do you really think anyone who uses a firearm in self defense in MA is going to get a fair shake from any prosecutor, whether it's technically compliant or not. I have several handguns that were originally bought either by me before I was disabled from the PD or by other LEO's and transferred to me on an FA-10 that are not "compliant". Guess what......I carry them regularly. In the cooler weather, my Kimber Classic Stainless Target LE stays on my hip. Am I worried that I got it completely legally and there's no laws stating that I can't own it? Obvously not.

Don't be so worried about the AG's regs. The DPS already deemded it safe enough for us mere MA residents to possess. Being paranoid about the pistol you carry is just like the dealers in E. Mass being paranoid about selling legal guns. It's exactly what the AG's Office wants. You're not breaking any laws by carrying that G27, so don't worry about it!
 

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I am not arguing with you I am just trying to see if we all can help each other out. There are diffrent tales from every dealer you talk to. I understand that the FA10 covers us but I am saying why take a chance on a carry gun. I have plenty of other carry guns I can replace. It is the ones that I can not replace I often keep off my hip.

You are right some dealers are much more cautious about what they sell. I follow the laws so I can keep my right to hunt, target practice, protect myself, and collect. Firearms are my hobby and I just want to preserve my right anyway I can.

We need to stick together in this state. We have been shunned enough as it is.

Oh yea on that topic I am going to post an inquiry on who in mASS / NH might want to get together for a HK Pro member shoot. Would you be interested?
I am waiting on another member to see if he can lock on a range to hold this event at.
 
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I'm not trying to argue, either. If I came across that way, I apologize. And honestly, if I was a dealer, I would probably be overcautious, too, due to the $10,000 fine per gun that can be levied against you!

Depending on where the shoot is, I may be interested. I'm waaaaaaaaaaay out in W. Mass, so travel is a little tough sometimes.

Also, it looks like my deal to get the USP 45 F in trade is falling through. The guy I was dealing with is having 2nd thoughts now. So, although it may be an HK Forum shoot, I won't be shooting any HK's! It's too bad. I like my friend's USP 45 Compact, and I was hoping to get an HK of my own. Looks like I'll have to stick to my Berettas, Sigs, Glocks, and a whole pile of S&W autos!

Let me know when and where the shoot is and I'll try to make it work.
 

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The Ag's list apply ONLY to dealers. If someone had a gun not on the list and you did a face to face transfer, can can buy it. I have bought several 3rd gen glocks from cops doing a face to face transfer. I've also sold some nice guns not on the list.
 
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That's right. I have a Kimber Classic Stainless Target LE on my hip right now. Try finding one of those for sale in a gunshop!

No 3rd Gen Glocks in my safe yet though. I do already have a 1st Gen G17, several 2nd Gen Glocks, and two Gen 2.5's are on the way now.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
All this is getting confusing to a new person like me. I do not understand that if you buy the gun from the police officer and its not on the list its legal?

Is that correct?
 
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All this is getting confusing to a new person like me. I do not understand that if you buy the gun from the police officer and its not on the list its legal?

Is that correct?
Any "Individual Officer" purchase of a "non-compliant" handgun must be made using a letter from his/her Chief or firearms instructor stating that the weapon is for "duty use", "training", "off-duty/backup" use, etc and is not being purchased for resale. There are many LEO's abusing this, buying as many handguns as they can and doing the 4 allowed FA-10 personal transfers per year, making a lot of money on each of them. I've seen new 3rd Gen Glocks going for $1300!

Is it legal to buy from them? Yes. There's nothing illegal about buying using an FA-10 personal transfer since all of the penalties of the law are directed towards licensed dealers (01 FFL holders).

Is it illegal for the officer to be selling like this? I would have to say maybe, if they are buying and selling them quickly or doing several of them. But, if it's just an officer who purchased a firearm in good faith, used it as a duty weapon, backup, off-duty, etc, and changed his/her mind later, changed departments, left LEO work, etc, then I don't see anyone having any problems with it.

Next week there is a conference with Chief Ron Glidden, who is the expert in MA on the firearms laws. I was just in this discussion last night with a few other instructors at the club after showing them my Kimber Classic Stainless Target LE. At the conference, this question will be asked and I can post what the response was then.
 

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You also have to consider people who have moved into the state that are selling guns that they have in there collection. If someone moves to MA and has 20 guns that are not on the list, he can sell 4 a year without any issues.
These new guns in the state are legal, dealers just can't touch them.
I'd be interested in hearing what is said at that meeting.
 
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Rich- OT, I know, but what club do you shoot at? I'm probably about 10 minutes from where you live, depending on where in Amherst you are. E-mail me if you want at Hawgleg44 AT aol DOT com.
 

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I shoot at the notch, Norwottuck Fish & Game, in Amherst, just got back in fact. Also Agawam & westfield. We should shoot sometime.
Rich G
 

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To be safe use this sight as a reference and a link to the state laws.
http://fsguns.com/malawsandregs.html
It is a local shop and is one of the best shops in the state. If you look at the new handguns section it will let you know what NEW PRODUCTION handguns can be bought in this state. You will find that the choices are very limited.
QUOTE]


I agree, FS Guns rocks. They've done some transefers for me that other dealers would not touch becuase of the AG's list. They really know what they are talking about when it comes to the stupid AG laws, as well as anyone can that is.
 
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