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Discussion Starter #1
Have a safe and Merry Christmas.
Quotes on Christmas. Enjoy!

What is Christmas? It is tenderness for the past, courage for the present, hope for the future. It is a fervent wish that every cup may overflow with blessings rich and eternal, and that every path may lead to peace.
Agnes M. Pharo

And the Grinch, with his Grinch-feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling, how could it be so? It came without ribbons. It came without tags. It came without packages, boxes or bags. And he puzzled and puzzled 'till his puzzler was sore. Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before. What if Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store. What if Christmas, perhaps, means a little bit more.
Dr. Seuss

The only blind person at Christmastime is he who has not Christmas in his heart.
Helen Keller

Probably the reason we all go so haywire at Christmas time with the endless unrestrained and often silly buying of gifts is that we don't quite know how to put our love into words.
Harlan Miller

I stopped believing in Santa Claus when I was six. Mother took me to see him in a department store and he asked for my autograph.
Shirley Temple

Christmas waves a magic wand over this world, and behold, everything is softer and more beautiful.
Norman Vincent Peale

Perhaps the best Yuletide decoration is being wreathed in smiles.
Unknown

I will honor Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year.
Charles ****ens
 

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Happy Holidays to All! Don, best wishes to you and the ladies. I love the quotes! We really need to get together one more time before you move.
 

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Merry Christmas everyone!

And yes I agree, we should definitely do another shoot before Don moves to a state of firearm freedom :)
 

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Well, my holiday wishes just got shot to hell. Called up NYPD Licensing division today and asked if I'm allowed, as a resident of the five boroughs with a legal pistol permit, to own an FN Five seveN. I was told flat out "NO" without an explanation. Now I have to spend the last few days of 2007 figuring out who is right (my range, my shop, nypd, etc). Luckily, I have a USP Expert 9mm lined up in the wings...

Sucks because there's a shop in Long Island (Coliseum Guns) that has the FN in stock. I was going to go check it out this weekend, but they advised me to check with NYPD first...grrrrrrrrrr
 

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Well, my holiday wishes just got shot to hell. Called up NYPD Licensing division today and asked if I'm allowed, as a resident of the five boroughs with a legal pistol permit, to own an FN Five seveN. I was told flat out "NO" without an explanation. Now I have to spend the last few days of 2007 figuring out who is right (my range, my shop, nypd, etc). Luckily, I have a USP Expert 9mm lined up in the wings...

Sucks because there's a shop in Long Island (Coliseum Guns) that has the FN in stock. I was going to go check it out this weekend, but they advised me to check with NYPD first...grrrrrrrrrr
I once had a transfer held up when I was once told by the NYPD that a federal agent isn't a peace officer and thus I couldn't transfer a pistol to another peace officer.

I told him to get out his CPL and check section 2.15

Find a way to do your own research. NYPD licensing section is taught to say "no" first and think second.
 
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We really need to get together one more time before you move.?????
__________________
DMG---Where are you moving too??
Merry X-mas and Happy New year
Im Near Buffalo -I cant Immagine what its like living in NYC -Under Blooming idiot!!!!
I want to move to a GUN friendly State also----Any suggestions ???--I see VT Is one of the highest Taxed states --WWaaaa WWaaaaa Wwaaa! And AK is much too cold !
Maby NH.
 
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IN-I should have read further down -!
I visited Indianapolis A year ago Id actually Live there what a pretty place and the brew pubs are Great!!!
Good luck =Keep in touch -!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
gun friendly states that i would live in:

IN
KY
SC
FL
TN
AZ
CO?-this one is going downhill
WA?
Alaska
 

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you forgot PA and New Hampshire.

As for the Five-seveN, it was banned 2 years ago when Spitzer was the DA of NYC. It was part of his agenda after someone lobbied him to ban it as 5.7 rounds can pierce through kevlar vests (as they're basically mini FMJ rifle rounds), despite technically being a .22 magnum bullet.

IMO it was not needed as 5.7 ammo is so rare that the cost of it is prohibitive for most criminals.
 

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you forgot PA and New Hampshire.

As for the Five-seveN, it was banned 2 years ago when Spitzer was the DA of NYC. It was part of his agenda after someone lobbied him to ban it as 5.7 rounds can pierce through kevlar vests (as they're basically mini FMJ rifle rounds), despite technically being a .22 magnum bullet.

IMO it was not needed as 5.7 ammo is so rare that the cost of it is prohibitive for most criminals.

I'm sorry, but Spitzer was not "the DA of NYC" at any time. There is no DA for all five boroughs so that position doesn't even exist. Spitzer was the AG of NYS prior to becoming Governor, but that would not explain why the Five-Seven would be banned in NYC and not in NYS.

Find where it says that the pistol is prohibited in either the New York City Code or in the New York State Code. THAT'S where your answer comes from.
 

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I'm sorry, but Spitzer was not "the DA of NYC" at any time. There is no DA for all five boroughs so that position doesn't even exist. Spitzer was the AG of NYS prior to becoming Governor, but that would not explain why the Five-Seven would be banned in NYC and not in NYS.

Find where it says that the pistol is prohibited in either the New York City Code or in the New York State Code. THAT'S where your answer comes from.
I'm still trying to figure that out. I spoke with some folks at the local range. They recommended I go in person to 1 Police Plaza and speak with a Licensing officer. I've found nothing in my search of the NYC Administrative Code nor the NYS Penal Code.

Of course, it doesn't help that some nutbag just got busted in Queens with an arsenal of weapons among which included a 5.7 PS90....

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...4_cops_seize_army_vets_weapons_arsenal-5.html
 

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I'm still trying to figure that out. I spoke with some folks at the local range. They recommended I go in person to 1 Police Plaza and speak with a Licensing officer. I've found nothing in my search of the NYC Administrative Code nor the NYS Penal Code.
I will admit that I have no interest in a Five Seven so I haven't really looked too hard in either Code, but my cursory review didn't see any mention of the pistol. (I could buy one regardless of what the NYS or NYC code says). If you go to One PP and they tell you no, ask to see where in the Code they're getting that "no" from. As I said, I had to point them to the right section of the law concerning the definition of a peace officer during a courtesy call over there, so I would expect that they will resort to their default position which is "no" if they don't know the answer. I don't imagine that they get many inquiries about the Five Seven and if you treat it like they should be concerned about it, they will act concerned about it.

I had the pistol inspection people yell at me (back before I became a Federal agent but when I was still a NYS Peace Officer) because I didn't stop to put the gun lock on the pistol in the time it took me to walk from the supply room (where I was issued the NYPD Glock) down the hall to where they inspect the pistol. I asked them where in the public hallway that they would have suggested that I stop, take out the pistol, and put on the lock that wouldn't have raised a serious scene.

They didn't have an answer for that, but insisted that I should have had the lock on the pistol before I got to the inspection room. There's not a lot of common sense in that building.

To my knowledge, the Five Seven pistol isn't banned in NYS (the high cap mags that go with it are) and I haven't seen anything suggesting that its banned in NYC either. I'm not sure where you'd be able to go shoot it nearby however.
 

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The ban did go through, I'm just having a hard time time finding a current list. Here's the info from when it hit the press at inception:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1356517/posts

Armor-piercing gun targeted (FN Herstal Five-seveN)
Newsday.com ^ | March 4, 2005 | KEN FIREMAN

Posted on 03/05/2005 1:54:27 AM PST by endthematrix

WASHINGTON -- In late December, police in South Jersey moved in to arrest a local drug dealer and made an unsettling discovery in his car. Besides more than a kilo of crack cocaine, they found a new type of handgun that was capable of piercing police body armor, according to Camden County Prosecutor Vincent Sarubbi.

The weapon, called the Five-seveN by its Belgian manufacturer, FN Herstal, began showing up on U.S. streets last fall, according to law enforcement officials. The gun is now itself a target - of legislation introduced yesterday by four lawmakers from New York and New Jersey that would ban it from the United States. The sponsors are Rep. Eliot Engel (D-Bronx), Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Sens. Frank Lautenberg and Jon Corzine, both New Jersey Democrats.

(Excerpt) Read more at newsday.com ...
Here's another one:
NYC's Top Cop Looks To Ban Vest-Busting Gun



Story by wnbc.com

NEW YORK -- Police say a round fired from the handgun "five-seven" handgun can render an officer's vest ineffective -- yet the firearm and its ammo is sold legally to the public.

Read Scott Weinberger's Original Report Now its penetrating power has raised serious concerns with New York City's top cop. On Thursday, police Commissioner Raymond Kelly called for the model five-seven handgun to be taken off the market.

"This is a weapon of war," Kelly said. "It's not something that should be out on the streets of our city or our country."

"It should be banned and banned aggressively," he added.

Word of the five-seven's rifle-like power and accuracy first surfaced in a bulletin from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger began to contact departments in the Tri-State area, and found that police in Trumbull, Conn. had seized a five-seven during an arrest.

PBA President Patrick Lynch said the union is also calling on legislators to step in.

"We are calling for legislation to be passed both federally and locally, banning this weapon so these weapons never come into our state and never get into the hands of the perps that we chase," Lynch said.

Lynch may get his wish. NewsChannel 4 was contacted by New Jersey senators Corzine & Lautenberg, both calling for an outright ban. Connecticut congressmen Christopher Shays sent a letter to the Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms Bureau asking for a full investigation.

The ATF is likely to be receptive. Agents in the New York field office told NewsChannel 4 they had also received the bulletin from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and have sent out that alert to all of their field agents.
I also found a thread here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=122615

According to the BATFE website, 5.7 AP rounds are banned (like any other handgun AP round), hollowpoints will not be imported (probably because they could penetrate Level II vests, though not Level IIIA), but FMJ "sporter" rounds remain importable and legal.
EDIT:
Found FN on the banned list here referring to New York Bill S8234:
http://www.scopeny.org/S8234.html

EDIT2:
More info here:
http://countertop-chronicles.blogspot.com/2005/01/lets-talk-media-bias.html
 

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You found FN rifles on the list of assault weapons. To my knowledge, that bill was passed in 2000. Old news. The Five Seven isn't on that list.

The other websites you've linked to, in my experience, are unreliable sources of information.

You've not linking to the text of the actual NYS or NYC Codes.
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS
Start with § 265.00 Definitions of the NYS Penal Law and Chapter 3 of the NYC Administrative Code (§ 10-301).
 

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Hmm... looks like NYS legislature and NYPD overhauled their website in the last month. The PDF link in my sig is dead which had the list of currently banned weapons hosted on the NYC Legislature's website. Weird.

EDIT:
Federale, since you're knowledgeable on the topic, do you know which Benelli's are allowed in NYC? I still can't seem to get a straight answer from NYPD either, and I'm trying to decide. If not, I'll probably just get a Remington.
 

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Its not that I'm knowledgeable, I'm just looking at what the law actually states.

22. "Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an
ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the
following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a
flash suppressor;
(v) a grenade launcher; or
(b) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following
characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or
(c) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics:
(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the
pistol grip;
(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash
suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm
with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is
unloaded;
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm;
or
(d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames or receivers of such
weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known
as:
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all
models);
(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street
Sweeper and Striker 12;


My reading of NYS law is that a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine;
would be an assault weapon.

I am not aware of a NY State list of banned weapons, other than those listed above. It is the features that are banned. If you want to buy a semi-auto Benelli that doesn't have two or more of those features, then my interpretation of the STATE law would be that you're buying a shotgun, not an assault weapon.

Of course NYC says this:
16. "Assault weapon."
(a) Any semiautomatic centerfire or rimfire rifle or semiautomatic
shotgun which has one or more of the following features:
1. folding or telescoping stock or no stock;
2. pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the
weapon;
3. bayonet mount;
4. flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash
suppressor;
5. barrel shroud;
6. grenade launcher; or
7. modifications of such features, or other features, determined by
rule of the commissioner to be particularly suitable for military and
not sporting purposes. In addition, the commissioner shall, by rule,
designate specific semiautomatic centerfire or rimfire rifles or
semiautomatic shotguns, identified by make, model and/or manufacturer's
name, as within the definition of assault weapon, if the commissioner
determines that such weapons are particularly suitable for military and
not sporting purposes. The commissioner shall inspect such specific
designated semiautomatic centerfire or rimfire rifles or semiautomatic
shotguns at least three times per year, and shall revise or update such
designations as he or she deems appropriate.
(b) Any shotgun with a revolving-cylinder magazine.
(c) Any part, or combination of parts, designed or redesigned or
intended to readily convert a rifle or shotgun into an assault weapon.

So my reading of NYC law is that if you may buy a shotgun, but as soon as it has one of those features, its an assault weapon. The NYPD Commissioner apparently puts out a list and designates which weapons are "assault weapons" and which weapons aren't. Absent any other features, then my reading would be that a pistol gripped shotgun would not be able to be purchased, but one with a standard stock would. Unless, of course, its on the Commissioner's list that nobody seems to be able to find. ;)
 

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Federale, since you're knowledgeable on the topic, do you know which Benelli's are allowed in NYC? I still can't seem to get a straight answer from NYPD either, and I'm trying to decide. If not, I'll probably just get a Remington.
My impression is that any rifle/shotgun with a pistol grip is not allowed. Any shotgun that has the capability to fire in both pump and semi-auto modes are not allowed. You save a lot of cash if you went with either the Remington or Mossberg. Both are reliable and there are a ton of accessories out there.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
you forgot PA and New Hampshire.
not to pick on you muevelo. but i wouldn't want to live in NH. and PA would be ok but i have family and friends in other states that i would prefer to be in first. although i would get to see more steelers games. but all i have to do is get directv when i move, i can't have it where i live due to technical issues.
 

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True true... VA and FL would be my first picks too. LOL My biggest problem is that I like NYC too much and have way too much friends and family here. (that and in my industry, NYC pays too well compared to elsewhere) With the tide of the laws turning on more gun ownership, we can see things change. Heck even NYPD finally now has the residence pistol permit digital in PDF online form as of this month! No longer have to hike to 1PP any more to pick up a paper app. The whole paperwork chain is now done really well and organized online, then submit hardcopy in person.

As for the shotgun thing, on that note, that pretty much bans all Benelli's except the M1 pump.
 
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