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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After watching LAV's video on the MP5/10mm, I'm curious as to why this isn't applied to the 9mm platform?
 

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Quite simply, it was never asked for.
 

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The Librarian
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Bolt Hold Open on a MP5 was a FBI requirement and you need more than asking for it. A few hundred thousand units also helps considerably. A couple of years ago the FBI wanted to place an order for a few more, but HK told them they had the UMP. FBI didn't place an order.
 

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It violates one of the principal design tenets of the operating system, which is to keep itself sealed shut in order to protect itself.

It wasn't forgotten. It was expressly designed NOT to have one.
 

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Joe... Didn't you do some R&D work on just that, but found that reverse engineering an existing 9mm mag to work with a BHO proved to be a RPITA?
Yep. The 9mm mags were not easily convertible for use with a BHO. Not impossible, but more than I wanted to get involved with. I made it as far as getting the receiver done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Bummer, maybe in another 10 years there will be enough demand for it to be streamlined.

Yep. The 9mm mags were not easily convertible for use with a BHO. Not impossible, but more than I wanted to get involved with. I made it as far as getting the receiver done.
With ETS looking into producing MP5 magazines, what's the likelihood of incorporating BHO features for future use? Do you foresee BHO magazines still working in normal receivers not yet set up for BHO?
 

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Bummer, maybe in another 10 years there will be enough demand for it to be streamlined.



With ETS looking into producing MP5 magazines, what's the likelihood of incorporating BHO features for future use? Do you foresee BHO magazines still working in normal receivers not yet set up for BHO?

We will not be re-opening the project.
 

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Just to be clear, the BHO of the .40 caliber receiver requires a modification of the receiver to have the room for the BHO device. This would require a custom 9mm receiver with modified 9mm mags. This would not be cheap. So unless there was a very large order to cover these extra expenses, I doubt if any manufacturer would do so. Could it be done? Absolutely, the question is, who would pay for it? Certainly someone with time, skills and access to the right tools could do it for themselves. To pay someone with those those things to do it for you, would most likely need to have you front a couple thousand dollars plus a 9mm receiver, .40 caliber receiver with BHO parts and a 9mm parts set with a dozen 9mm mags. You could buy an AR 9mm carbine for a lot less than that would lock back after the last round. YMMV.

Scott
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Just to be clear, the BHO of the .40 caliber receiver requires a modification of the receiver to have the room for the BHO device. This would require a custom 9mm receiver with modified 9mm mags. This would not be cheap. So unless there was a very large order to cover these extra expenses, I doubt if any manufacturer would do so. Could it be done? Absolutely, the question is, who would pay for it? Certainly someone with time, skills and access to the right tools could do it for themselves. To pay someone with those those things to do it for you, would most likely need to have you front a couple thousand dollars plus a 9mm receiver, .40 caliber receiver with BHO parts and a 9mm parts set with a dozen 9mm mags. You could buy an AR 9mm carbine for a lot less than that would lock back after the last round. YMMV.

Scott
That's a good copy. I guess I was just curious on the overall large scale implementation of the BHO, starting with HK's in-house capabilities; modernizing the MP5. Especially to compete with the Scorpion Evo's and similar on the market.
 

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Quite simply, it was never asked for.
Actually, HK was asked for this MANY times for the 9mm MP5 variants.
US users grow up with bolt catches on their auto-loading rifles - we like/rely on them. They want the same manual of arms for their subguns as in their rifles. That includes the function of a bolt catch.
HK GmbH was never willing to add that to the MP5. They fought us (HK Inc, me as the MP5/10 PM) when the FBI requested in on the MP5/10. "Those crazy Americans" they said.

Keep in mind that HK went WAY out on a limb developing the MP5/10 with the hopes that the FBI would then buy it, and in sufficient numbers to justify the design (5000 or more), testing and tooling costs which are considerable (estimated > $750K). MP5/10 was a new receiver and barrel, bolt group and stock components, bolt catch, cocking lever support, ejector and trigger housing, and most importantly three iterations of a reliable magazine, THE most difficult and expense part of any new firearm, AND many thousands of expensive 10mm rounds for testing. And do not forget the accessories like dual mag clamps, flash hiders, suppressors, etc. It adds up quickly.

During this process the FBI 10mm S&W 1076 pistol fiasco occurred and the .40 S&W cartridge was released which killed 10mm Auto in additional/future FBI pistols. But we persisted and gave the FBI a big "save face" win that they REALLY needed at that time by developing and fielding a reliable ass-kicking SMG in maybe THE best pistol-caliber cartridge for that application. In the end the FBI purchased more than 5000 MP5/10's that were employed in HRT and SWAT roles as select-fire SMG's and in SF and 2RB configs as Agent Carbines. They we loved by the agent population and rightfully so. Another 5000 MP5/40's were made and sold to countless agencies around the US.

It takes an appreciable redesign of the weapon to add the bolt catch. New mag and follower, mods to the mag well and receiver and the addition of the catch components themselves. They lots of testing and new tooling. For what?

In our tests we found out that when a shooter is focused on engaging a target, especially under stress, it is not the bolt locking to the rear that signals the shooter that it is time to reload. It is the multiple pulls of the "dead" trigger on an empty chamber that does. It can be argued that it is easier and faster to drop the bolt on a new mag then to retract and release the cocking handle on an MP5 and that was indeed the case with the MP5/10's and MP5/40's.

So yes, customers in the US did want a bolt catch on the MP5, still do. Would HK have sold more MP5's in 9mm with one - yes. In fact there were numerous cases where the MP5 was spec'd out of major federal bids because it did not have one. Case in point was the DEA, State Dept and DOE purchase of the 9mm Colt SMG which had a bolt catch. That was @ 10,000 guns.

But then we fought HK GmbH for many other improvements to the MP5 that had been asked for for years, like a better locking roller holder, extended safety/selector lever, multiple position retractable stock, threaded barrel on the K variant and ambidextrous sling attachment and sling - much of that we got with the MP5/10. The US HK guys are still fighting the German HK guys for things the US market wants and would buy.

That is your HK history lesson for the day. Now get back to work!

G3Kurz
 

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Actually, HK was asked for this MANY times for the 9mm MP5 variants.
US users grow up with bolt catches on their auto-loading rifles - we like/rely on them. They want the same manual of arms for their subguns as in their rifles. That includes the function of a bolt catch.
HK GmbH was never willing to add that to the MP5. They fought us (HK Inc, me as the MP5/10 PM) when the FBI requested in on the MP5/10. "Those crazy Americans" they said.

Keep in mind that HK went WAY out on a limb developing the MP5/10 with the hopes that the FBI would then buy it, and in sufficient numbers to justify the design (5000 or more), testing and tooling costs which are considerable (estimated > $750K). MP5/10 was a new receiver and barrel, bolt group and stock components, bolt catch, cocking lever support, ejector and trigger housing, and most importantly three iterations of a reliable magazine, THE most difficult and expense part of any new firearm, AND many thousands of expensive 10mm rounds for testing. And do not forget the accessories like dual mag clamps, flash hiders, suppressors, etc. It adds up quickly.

During this process the FBI 10mm S&W 1076 pistol fiasco occurred and the .40 S&W cartridge was released which killed 10mm Auto in additional/future FBI pistols. But we persisted and gave the FBI a big "save face" win that they REALLY needed at that time by developing and fielding a reliable ass-kicking SMG in maybe THE best pistol-caliber cartridge for that application. In the end the FBI purchased more than 5000 MP5/10's that were employed in HRT and SWAT roles as select-fire SMG's and in SF and 2RB configs as Agent Carbines. They we loved by the agent population and rightfully so. Another 5000 MP5/40's were made and sold to countless agencies around the US.

It takes an appreciable redesign of the weapon to add the bolt catch. New mag and follower, mods to the mag well and receiver and the addition of the catch components themselves. They lots of testing and new tooling. For what?

In our tests we found out that when a shooter is focused on engaging a target, especially under stress, it is not the bolt locking to the rear that signals the shooter that it is time to reload. It is the multiple pulls of the "dead" trigger on an empty chamber that does. It can be argued that it is easier and faster to drop the bolt on a new mag then to retract and release the cocking handle on an MP5 and that was indeed the case with the MP5/10's and MP5/40's.

So yes, customers in the US did want a bolt catch on the MP5, still do. Would HK have sold more MP5's in 9mm with one - yes. In fact there were numerous cases where the MP5 was spec'd out of major federal bids because it did not have one. Case in point was the DEA, State Dept and DOE purchase of the 9mm Colt SMG which had a bolt catch. That was @ 10,000 guns.

But then we fought HK GmbH for many other improvements to the MP5 that had been asked for for years, like a better locking roller holder, extended safety/selector lever, multiple position retractable stock, threaded barrel on the K variant and ambidextrous sling attachment and sling - much of that we got with the MP5/10. The US HK guys are still fighting the German HK guys for things the US market wants and would buy.

That is your HK history lesson for the day. Now get back to work!

G3Kurz
HAHAHAHA! I was hoping that would lure you in! As always, thanks for the history!

Cheers!
Joe
 

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It's also interesting to point out that the Germans previously had a BHO on the G1 (FAL) and then went to the G3 which did not have one.

G3Kurz - is it your understanding that the Roller lock guns intentionally don't have one because the original design is that the operating system protects itself by keeping itself shut?
 

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Actually, HK was asked for this MANY times for the 9mm MP5 variants.
US users grow up with bolt catches on their auto-loading rifles - we like/rely on them. They want the same manual of arms for their subguns as in their rifles. That includes the function of a bolt catch.
HK GmbH was never willing to add that to the MP5. They fought us (HK Inc, me as the MP5/10 PM) when the FBI requested in on the MP5/10. "Those crazy Americans" they said.

Keep in mind that HK went WAY out on a limb developing the MP5/10 with the hopes that the FBI would then buy it, and in sufficient numbers to justify the design (5000 or more), testing and tooling costs which are considerable (estimated > $750K). MP5/10 was a new receiver and barrel, bolt group and stock components, bolt catch, cocking lever support, ejector and trigger housing, and most importantly three iterations of a reliable magazine, THE most difficult and expense part of any new firearm, AND many thousands of expensive 10mm rounds for testing. And do not forget the accessories like dual mag clamps, flash hiders, suppressors, etc. It adds up quickly.

During this process the FBI 10mm S&W 1076 pistol fiasco occurred and the .40 S&W cartridge was released which killed 10mm Auto in additional/future FBI pistols. But we persisted and gave the FBI a big "save face" win that they REALLY needed at that time by developing and fielding a reliable ass-kicking SMG in maybe THE best pistol-caliber cartridge for that application. In the end the FBI purchased more than 5000 MP5/10's that were employed in HRT and SWAT roles as select-fire SMG's and in SF and 2RB configs as Agent Carbines. They we loved by the agent population and rightfully so. Another 5000 MP5/40's were made and sold to countless agencies around the US.

It takes an appreciable redesign of the weapon to add the bolt catch. New mag and follower, mods to the mag well and receiver and the addition of the catch components themselves. They lots of testing and new tooling. For what?

In our tests we found out that when a shooter is focused on engaging a target, especially under stress, it is not the bolt locking to the rear that signals the shooter that it is time to reload. It is the multiple pulls of the "dead" trigger on an empty chamber that does. It can be argued that it is easier and faster to drop the bolt on a new mag then to retract and release the cocking handle on an MP5 and that was indeed the case with the MP5/10's and MP5/40's.

So yes, customers in the US did want a bolt catch on the MP5, still do. Would HK have sold more MP5's in 9mm with one - yes. In fact there were numerous cases where the MP5 was spec'd out of major federal bids because it did not have one. Case in point was the DEA, State Dept and DOE purchase of the 9mm Colt SMG which had a bolt catch. That was @ 10,000 guns.

But then we fought HK GmbH for many other improvements to the MP5 that had been asked for for years, like a better locking roller holder, extended safety/selector lever, multiple position retractable stock, threaded barrel on the K variant and ambidextrous sling attachment and sling - much of that we got with the MP5/10. The US HK guys are still fighting the German HK guys for things the US market wants and would buy.

That is your HK history lesson for the day. Now get back to work!

G3Kurz
But really G3Kurz...when are you going to publish your HK memoirs?...

Regarding your last paragraph- it would appear that the development of the MP5 Mid-Life Improvement model did incorporate some of these features, but not others. Is this to say HK GmbH has proven to be more flexible to customer demands as opposed to the past?
 

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Actually, HK was asked for this MANY times for the 9mm MP5 variants.
US users grow up with bolt catches on their auto-loading rifles - we like/rely on them. They want the same manual of arms for their subguns as in their rifles. That includes the function of a bolt catch.
HK GmbH was never willing to add that to the MP5. They fought us (HK Inc, me as the MP5/10 PM) when the FBI requested in on the MP5/10. "Those crazy Americans" they said.

Keep in mind that HK went WAY out on a limb developing the MP5/10 with the hopes that the FBI would then buy it, and in sufficient numbers to justify the design (5000 or more), testing and tooling costs which are considerable (estimated > $750K). MP5/10 was a new receiver and barrel, bolt group and stock components, bolt catch, cocking lever support, ejector and trigger housing, and most importantly three iterations of a reliable magazine, THE most difficult and expense part of any new firearm, AND many thousands of expensive 10mm rounds for testing. And do not forget the accessories like dual mag clamps, flash hiders, suppressors, etc. It adds up quickly.

During this process the FBI 10mm S&W 1076 pistol fiasco occurred and the .40 S&W cartridge was released which killed 10mm Auto in additional/future FBI pistols. But we persisted and gave the FBI a big "save face" win that they REALLY needed at that time by developing and fielding a reliable ass-kicking SMG in maybe THE best pistol-caliber cartridge for that application. In the end the FBI purchased more than 5000 MP5/10's that were employed in HRT and SWAT roles as select-fire SMG's and in SF and 2RB configs as Agent Carbines. They we loved by the agent population and rightfully so. Another 5000 MP5/40's were made and sold to countless agencies around the US.

It takes an appreciable redesign of the weapon to add the bolt catch. New mag and follower, mods to the mag well and receiver and the addition of the catch components themselves. They lots of testing and new tooling. For what?

In our tests we found out that when a shooter is focused on engaging a target, especially under stress, it is not the bolt locking to the rear that signals the shooter that it is time to reload. It is the multiple pulls of the "dead" trigger on an empty chamber that does. It can be argued that it is easier and faster to drop the bolt on a new mag then to retract and release the cocking handle on an MP5 and that was indeed the case with the MP5/10's and MP5/40's.

So yes, customers in the US did want a bolt catch on the MP5, still do. Would HK have sold more MP5's in 9mm with one - yes. In fact there were numerous cases where the MP5 was spec'd out of major federal bids because it did not have one. Case in point was the DEA, State Dept and DOE purchase of the 9mm Colt SMG which had a bolt catch. That was @ 10,000 guns.

But then we fought HK GmbH for many other improvements to the MP5 that had been asked for for years, like a better locking roller holder, extended safety/selector lever, multiple position retractable stock, threaded barrel on the K variant and ambidextrous sling attachment and sling - much of that we got with the MP5/10. The US HK guys are still fighting the German HK guys for things the US market wants and would buy.

That is your HK history lesson for the day. Now get back to work!

G3Kurz
Seems like working for HK USA would be incredibly frustrating. Didn't know any of that. Why wouldn't you want to design a gun for the most prolific market in the world?
 

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It's also interesting to point out that the Germans previously had a BHO on the G1 (FAL) and then went to the G3 which did not have one.

G3Kurz - is it your understanding that the Roller lock guns intentionally don't have one because the original design is that the operating system protects itself by keeping itself shut?
That has always been the "excuse" but I believe it is more of a cultural thing. Post-WWII Germans were not really gun guys for the most part (there are exceptions) - they don't shoot like Americans do and certainly did not grow up with AR's with bolt catches as we did here. A fast reload on a G3 with a non-drop free mag is like a fast reload on a P38/P1 with the heal mag release - not very easy to do quickly for the average guy/soldier when compared to an AR-15 with a drop-free mag and mag button or M1911 with a slide lock and push button mag release. I never fully bought into the idea of the reliability of the roller-locked guns being reduced because the bolt locks open, though in certain environments (around helos and rotor wash, in a desert wind, etc) that might apply. That "angry" G3 bolt coming forward is hard to arrest with a bolt catch though I have seen it done. HK416's lock open and they certainly are very reliable in very inhospitable places.

I think the HK of old just got things in their heads and being the Germans that they are stubbornly resisted change, even if it means making products folks don't want. This is why they continued to push stamped roller locked rifles and LMG's and roller-locked and "retarded" pistols (gas retarded) when the world was buying everything but HK rifles and pistols. HK's best product line, in nearly every category is what they created in the early 1990's on once they started making what the customers wanted versus what the designers thought was technically superior.

As yes HK (or any gun maker) should design and build for the US market first and they will have a successful product worldwide. That lesson was learned a very long time ago but too often is forgotten in "The Lindenhof" (the name for the location in Oberndorf of HK GmbH). That fight sadly still goes on today.

G3Kurz
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks for the history lesson and exactly what I was looking for on HK's involvement with modernization of their designs.
 
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