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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Heya guys,

Looking for MORE independent confirmation. If I had someone like Ghilliebear build me an MP5 build as a pistol, then I attached a fake can to make it a rifle - do I have to engrave my name when submitting my Form 1 to make an SBR without the can? I'm thinking not - as per the Form 1 -

i: Make. The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA) , putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.

Added bold. I dont see how removing a fake can could be construed as manufacturing (something is being destroyed), putting together (something is being removed, not put together), altering (I'm not altering anything that was a part of the firearm)

I could see if I was physically cutting the original barrel down - but I'm not. A Fake can is no more a barrel than an extended flash hider, no?

I contacted my local FFL about this, and he agreed. Jeff (Ghilliebear) said the same thing.

Just wanted clarification.

Sam

EDIT: Okay, perhaps my OP wasnt clear - my intention is to make an SBR without a fake can. Its a rifle now, with a fake can perm. pinned, and a stock. I want to keep the stock, ditch the fake can.
 

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I didn't think you had to do anything when making a pistol into a rifle. Just add barrel length and stock. Once a rifle it can't go back to pistol status but I didn't think there was any engraving needed or forms from pistol to rifle....
 

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First need clarification on what are you doing.
- In the second first line you are making a rifle from a pistol by attaching a fake can (either blind pin or silver solder). Would this be a 16" barreled rifle with an over all length of 26"?
- In the fourth line our are removing a fake can .... which would make a rifle into a short barrel rifle (can't go back to a pistol in the old days, now days will leave it up to the lawyers and TC ... ;-).

Second if you want a rifle have Ghilliebear build you a rifle to start with, it's just easier.

Third last set of letters / rulings would allow you to go SBR to Rifle and back by adding and removing the fake can ...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
1) Yes
2) Correct.

3) Next time ;)

4) Hm. Really?
 

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922r
if you put a fake can on the pistol and made it a rifle the Fake can become part of the barrel . you would need to get the form 1 back of the atf before removing the fake can ..
Heya guys,

Looking for MORE independent confirmation. If I had someone like Ghilliebear build me an MP5 build as a pistol, then I attached a fake can to make it a rifle - do I have to engrave my name when submitting my Form 1? I'm thinking not - as per the Form 1 -

i: Make. The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA) , putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.

Added bold. I dont see how removing a fake can could be construed as manufacturing (something is being destroyed), putting together (something is being removed, not put together), altering (I'm not altering anything that was a part of the firearm)

I could see if I was physically cutting the original barrel down - but I'm not. A Fake can is no more a barrel than an extended flash hider, no?

I contacted my local FFL about this, and he agreed. Jeff (Ghilliebear) said the same thing.

Just wanted clarification.

Sam
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Correct - but no engraving?
 

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no engraving Yes I have been told by the atf no engraving needed on a form 1 .but do not go on just what I was told. It best to contact the atf yourself . I have no letter on this,, but also have not seen a atf ruling on it .. just what a class 2/7 must do on marking .
 

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And be aware that IF Ghillie HAD a letter to that fact, it would mean nothing to you, except that it had been allowed at least once. If you intended to do the same, you would need your own letter. The letter only covers the letter writer... nobody else.

Never do anything because one guy got a letter saying he can do such and such.
 

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^^^ This. Current regs require the maker/assembler to mark after approval, after weapon is made/assembled. There are spec's as to what is to be included in the mark, how big, how deep, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
But straightgrain, I'm not making or assembling anything, Jeff did that and its got his 02 name, and a serial already on it. As previously mentioned, I dont see how removing a fake can could be construed as manufacturing (something, if anything is being destroyed), putting together (something is being removed, not put together), altering (I'm not altering anything that was a part of the original firearm, the original barrel has not been altered). Can someone explain how I'm incorrect if I am?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well, called the NFA branch and spoke to a Technical adviser. As simply put as he could: "When you're making an NFA firearm regardless of the original manufacturer, you are now the current manufacturer, and need to have your information engraved on the firearm."

Ugh. I still don't get how I'm "making" anything, and their definition of "make" is kind of bull****. This type of information should be DAMN CLEAR as well as the necessity to have it engraved, period. How hard is it to modify a PDF, ffs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Alright guys, so I'm reading this.

CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE (note, I am a nonlicensee)

6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name and
location of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant is
making a completely new firearm
, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a).
The type of firearm being made, i.e., short barrel rifle, short barrel shotgun, any other weapon, silencer
or destructive device, is to be entered in Block 4(b). The caliber or gauge of the firearm is to be entered
in Block 4(c). If a model designation has been assigned to the firearm, that designation is to be placed in
Block 4(d). If the weapon has no model designation, enter “none” in Block 4(d). The length of the
barrel is to be entered, in inches, in Block 4(e) and the overall length of the firearm is to be entered, in
inches, in Block 4(f).

Bold #1) My PCS CMP is an existing firearm, therefor "PARABELLUM COMBAT SYSTEMS STILWELL, OK"
Bold #2) I'm not, so not applicable. Moving on!

All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings. If an existing
firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial
number should be used
(unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and
entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number and enter it in Block 4(g).
For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4
digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted
as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to
the alpha characters.

Bold #3) Already is identified by a serial number - the one Jeff stamped into the gun.
Bold #4) The firearm is an existing firearm as per above, and IS serialized already by Jeff, therefor thats the serial used.
Bold #5) It is not a weapon of new manufacture. I do not manufacture firearms, nor am I licensed to do so.

The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,
and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.
The
marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to
section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements.

Bold #6) Already done so by Jeff before I got the gun.

Lets jump to Section 7.4:

7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm
by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.

Bold #7) Already is. Done by Jeff at PCS.
Bold #8) "PARABELLUM COMBAT SYSTEMS" is engraved/stamped on the Magwell
Bold #9) "STILWELL, OK" as well. (Note, as a NONLICENSEE, I am not a manufacturer that maintains a place of business.


Now, all of this said - I still have yet to find any law or statute that says I, as a non-licensee, not making a new firearm from parts, has to engrave anything about me on the existing firearm.

Hell, where would I even PUT that information? Theres NOWHERE on the form that says that I, as the "maker" of the new NFA weapon should put my info down.

Considering the fact that the ATF changes their rulings on a whim, and as all have said before, a letter does not constitute as legally binding, someone PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IN THE CURRENT REGS IT SAYS THAT I, AS A NON-LICENSEE, NEEDS TO ENGRAVE MY GUN.

The issue here stems from the vague definition of "make". I suppose the real question is - does removing a pinned fake suppressor alter a firearm enough to consider me as a manufacturer? And how does that act make me a manufacturer? Am I now in violation of manufacturing a firearm without a license? This is getting silly-stupid.
 

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The problem you're running into here is that anything involving the BATFE is pretty much guaranteed to be a load of arbitrary bull**** because they can just say whatever they want on whatever topic they want and it's considered gospel. Forget reading the laws and trying to make sense of them, forget logic or common sense, forget everything you know because the boys at the ATF pretty much have nobody to answer to. The way I see it, any organization that can approve the Akins Accelerator, allow it to be manufactured and sold, and then just rescind their original judgement is just making up the rules as they go along. They don't follow the laws, but their "opinions" are to be treated as law. Seems pretty corrupt to me but that's just my two cents.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The other issue here, is that the act of modifying a barrel falls under the auspices of "gunsmithing". If I take a Saiga 12 with a 22" barrel to my local smith and he cuts it down to 19" - is this a newly manufactured firearm? The answer should also apply to this situation. An act of gunsmithing shouldn't be considered "making" or "manufacturing".
 

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that's the problem....see according to the feds doing pretty much anything to or with a gun falls under their asinine definition of "manufacturing" up to and including refinishing. Under that interpretation a gun would end up looking like a steamer trunk with engravings from anyone who's ever touched the damned thing for any reason whatsoever. Don't get me wrong I might be crapping all over the agency and the law and the whatever and I'll openly tell you I think they're all stupid as sin and merely doing everything they can to invalidate the 2nd amendment and take all the guns out of the hands of responsible citizens just like they've done in the UK but I'm as cautious as the next guy as far as tempting fate. Don't eff around....seriously....don't do it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

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yeah except that they'll back talk their way around that and issue an "opinion" letter that directly contradicts that. It's what they do. Don't believe me? you're the one asking questions and reading the laws and thinking to yourself "this doesn't jive" so......I just accept that they're crooked and they're out to get us and so I don't poke the bear.
 

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Heya guys,

Looking for MORE independent confirmation. If I had someone like Ghilliebear build me an MP5 build as a pistol, then I attached a fake can to make it a rifle - do I have to engrave my name when submitting my Form 1? I'm thinking not - as per the Form 1 -
Is this a permanant attachement? How is attaching a fake can converting it to a rifle?
 

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well if he blind pins/welds/solders the fake can (barrel extension/flash hider/whatever) then yes it would fall within the purview of "permanent" from there adding a stock would place the firearm within the definition of a "rifle" intended to be fired from the shoulder. I guess my mindset being based firmly in ARF-land rather than Deutchland makes a big difference seeing the modular nature of the beast in question as compared to this world of roller locks but I don't really see the whole pistol/rifle controversy without remembering the Thompson Center ruling which it seems to me the H&K community disregards in full

EDIT - Well that read like I've been drinking......

What I mean to say is that in the AR/M4 world Title I to Title II is as simple as a pair of push pins. The ATF has given their blessing to mounting a Title I upper on a registered SBR lower converting it to a Title I weapon that DOES NOT FALL WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE NFA and can be sold as such without any NFA action whatsoever. They advise that the seller notify that the weapon has been removed from the registry but it's not even mandatory. The TC ruling says that possession of parts that COULD be assembled into an unregistered SBR does not = said unregistered SBR per the US Supreme Court. Doesn't mean the ATF won't take you for a nasty friggin ride though.....

Boiled down this is how I see things.
Pistol + stock = SBR NFA TAX
SBR - Stock + endcap = Title I weapon system (IE pistol) NON NFA

The ATF would probably disagree with me and I'm running into the other room now to put on my flameproof undies because I'm sure someone here is about to burn my ass at the stake for saying this. As I said before the ATF doesn't follow the rules, they make them up as they go along to fit their purpose. There's no point debating it because they're going to win.
 
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