[AKR]

Hey all, I have been out of the game for while and i am out of touch with things a bit so I figured I would start here.

I am finally going to get around to doing an SD build. I am going to use a pistol receiver (or an SP-89 if I want to use all german parts) because I want the base gun
to be title 1.

1. Who would you recommend for sourcing the parts? I am probably going to go as close to factory as possible (handguard cage / barrel / correct front sight-cocking tube set up etc) so i am thinking I need a torch cut factory gun.

It was Gordon Miller and Adam Weber for a while. Is there someone out there who will have PD trade in parts kits or am I better off just checking out the NFA Board on Sturm etc.?


2. Who is available / recommended for doing the build. I am dealing on dated intel on my end. It used to be that Urbach was the best, but unless you knew him or lived close by, he was not someone the average guy could do business with. Terry Dyer was very good IMHO, but he could easily take 12-18 months, particularly if you got to him after he had just done a run of a particular type of gun. As I recall, Ralph at RDTS went through a phase where he would gladly accept your gun and never get around to doing the build. I remember hearing about some new guys, like Jayson at IGF, but I have never used him and he was new enough at the time that I would not have trusted him (no offense) with something which I considered complicated, like a receiver stretch.

I am looking for someone like Urbach or Dyer (who either has, can get or can make factory comparable parts), but without the 1-2 year wait time.

Should I just go back to Terry or is there some who could do this right in under a year?

Your time and thoughts are appreciated.

 

[4C Dragon]

I have had great luck with TPM Outfitters out of Carrollton, TX. Ken's work is awesome (I have projects built by everyone you mentioned above) welds, paint, communication and production time is the best. Ken has studied and worked closely with Urbach and regularly gets advice from him. His wait time is months (usually 2) and not years as you have mentioned above. It is nice to send a project off, get regular updates and the project delivered without any effort. He is a pleasant surprise to the HK world. I still have projects pending at one of the smith's you mentioned. After I call and email multiple times I might get a reply saying you are next and will receive it soon. TPM does not run their business like that nor do I. I started a service business in high school and after 27 years and several down turns in the economy it is stronger than ever because of customer service.

Good Luck

 

[scottinthegrove]

I have to say I'm a little confused about what you are trying to have built. So you want to use a SP89 receiver so it would be a pistol and Title I.(It is my understanding that there are issues transferring a pistol into MA that doesn't have the mag in the grip.) Yet later in the post you say that you "go as close to factory as possible". Are you looking to have the SP 89 receiver stretched to 94 length? A SD stretch (full size front end on a K receiver) would have a very high cyclic rate. That configuration wouldn't be very "factory correct". Lengthening the K receiver would be much more expensive and certainly more problematic than the $200 stamp to SBR a 94 receiver. I mean no offense, I'm just not following.

I've heard that Terry's wait times are even longer than you posted. Jason does good work. Mike at TSC Machine does excellent work but I hear he isn't wild over doing SD builds. I hear that Ralph has gotten his boys involved in the business and turnaround times have improved. There was a group buy of KAC SD cans. You might want to check that out as there aren't any HK factory cans available. LSC Manufacturing had some HK SD parts sets. I don't see the SD listed on their site, but I'd drop them a line and ask. Be very careful of bulged barrel in the kit. Phil Flack is a member here and has had parts sets in the past. I'd drop him a line.

Personally, I'm not big on buying used parts sets and the big money for a HK receiver. I'm having Jeff Walters (ghilliebear2000 here at this site) build me two SDs from SW94 full size receivers so the builds will be pistols. I also bought brand new SD front end kits from Adam that use a Rim Country barrel and I bought complete SD bolt groups made by Rim Country. I'd be willing to bet that I'll send a lot less on building two SD pistols than on one SD with all HK parts. But clones aren't for everyone. Good luck with your SD project. Your mileage may vary.

Scott

 

[Teufelshund Tactical]

I would go with as many HK factory parts as possible and use as close to new a HK94 as you can find. The KAC Navy suppressor buy mentioned above would be a great way to get a new and rare suppresor for it. I beleive Cliff has a few extra. I bought through him in the past and recommend him.
Ralph did my SD build. Turnaround time was acceptable and his work is excellent. He builds his own suppressors though and the use different threads than HK factory, so a parts kit or Navy suppressor will not work with it. His suppressor seems to be more quiet than the factory ones I shoot. Jayson at IGF also goes great work. He currently is working on my HK53. His turnaround time is incredibly quick. A video of his SD build is on his web site..

 

[Schlafftablett]

I'm kind of confsed as to what you want as well but assuming you're looking for a standard SD there are quite a few choices. I had Ralph do my SD as well but I wouldn't necessarily use him for the "auethentic style" project you have in mind. I'm sure it's well within his capability to build a true to HK SD copy but he specializes in his own conversions. That said his cans are really very quiet and can be special ordered with the factory HK thread. If I were to do it all again I'd go with a rolled LSC flat, Coharie cage and cocking tube, and use RCM for the remainder of the internals with an HK trigger pack and either a RDTS or KAC can using the factry thread. I'd be looking at a TSC, IGF, Ghillie or Chop build. Just my $.02

 

[AKR]

Hey guys thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

No problem getting pre-ban pistols into MA. I will not bore you with MA law, but suffice it to say it is annoying and quirky, but not anywhere near as bad as CA or NJ (and I figured out one heck of a loop hole a while back so it really is not a big deal).

I am am thinking of "stretching" both ends of an SP-89 (which is what Terry did for me on my MP-5N build), so I get the correct receiver without the extra tax stamp (my CLEO sign-off is a decent guy, but the job was delegated from the chief and he is not looking to process to many forms of a certain type if you know what I mean).

As far as the can, that is a no-no here in MA (which is one of the reasons this build has been on the back burner), but I am planning a move north eventually, so I would like to have the gun built my way by who I want now. I am going to worry about the can latter.

I appreciate the feedback and ideas, I am going to hunt around.

Thanks again.

 

[LEO]

I am so happy I live in Virginia!! We can own them all here.

Sad that you have to go through such lengths to own a gun.

 

[scottinthegrove]

"AKR" is very lucky to have a machinegun license. I lived in southern New Hampshire and worked in MA. There were several members of the club I was a member of in southern NH that lived in MA. We had a Class III friendly range. My understanding is that to own NFA items (SBR or machinegun, suppressors are not allowed) the chief of Police of the town you live in has to approve your license application. Politically MA is very anti gun. If the chief is politically minded and wants to move up, there won't be any "machinegun licenses" approved for civilians. As I understand it, if an officer in the town would use a SBR or machinegun in the course of his duties, he would need a license issues to him. A MA resident I know got his "machinegun license" approved in 2006. He said that there were a total of a little over 1,000 "machinegun licenses" approved in MA. When you take out the law enforcement licenses, that wouldn't be many in civilian hands. To stretch a SP89 to 94 configuration sounds very pricey. Good luck with the project.

Scott

 

[CHUCK_in_IN]

I have a S&H Arms MP5SD and am very happy with it. Might be work calling Curtis up and seeing what he can do. I just sent in a SP89 for a 3 lug addition and it took less than a week. Man I am happy.

Chuck

 

[AKR]

Yes, getting a "Green Card" in MA is an adventure in and of itself. You have to belong to a recognized club and have a good relationship with the local PD (if you are lucky enough to live in a town which will even consider such a thing, let alone the sign off on each purchase. There are some PDs in MA that will not even issue the necessary licence to own a "hi-cap" pistol like an USP or Glock etc.). When I retire, good bye MA.

SP-89 is an expensive option for sure, but lets face facts, HK is not cheap, so if I want close to "factory", whether you cut up an SP89 or an HK94, it is not going to be cheap (unless we there is another Cali DOJ style dump of PD guns and even then, they were $2.5 from distributors).

I know Curtis from a while back. Agreed that he is a man of his word with quick turn around, but I had only used him for flapper installs (done fast, correct and clean - he did 3 of them for me several years ago). I was not aware that he was versed in SD builds as I would like the "factory" correct cocking tube etc., so I am trying to gauge who I should be asking.

Thanks for the additional input. I am evaluating options.

 

[scottinthegrove]

Personally, since you have the license, I'd go with a 94 receiver as a SBR. I can imagine that a smith can not add to a SP89 such that it becomes the size of of a 94 for the same $200 for the stamp. The market value of a SP89 is around $500 more than a 94. Of course it is coming out of your pocket, so I hope it turns out the way you want it. I'd also post a WTB ad for a SD parts set. Have you looked into getting one of the Knights SD cans from the group buy? Good luck with the project.

Scott

 

[Shawminator]

Ralph at RDTS did my SD conversion. Absolutely beautiful craftsmanship that has functioned flawlessly. Highly recommended.

 

[nuge]

I have had great luck with TPM Outfitters out of Carrollton, TX. Ken's work is awesome (I have projects built by everyone you mentioned above) welds, paint, communication and production time is the best. Ken has studied and worked closely with Urbach and regularly gets advice from him. His wait time is months (usually 2) and not years as you have mentioned above. It is nice to send a project off, get regular updates and the project delivered without any effort. He is a pleasant surprise to the HK world. I still have projects pending at one of the smith's you mentioned. After I call and email multiple times I might get a reply saying you are next and will receive it soon. TPM does not run their business like that nor do I. I started a service business in high school and after 27 years and several down turns in the economy it is stronger than ever because of customer service.

Good Luck

I hope you are right - I recently took the plunge with them...

I see they now have an SD for sale on Sturm WTS: HK MP5SD A3 99% $5895.00

 

[scottinthegrove]

OMG, $5895.00 for a HK marked SD clone! Can you imagine the cost if they had used an actual HK SD parts set. They didn't say where the shroud came from. Or at least I missed that detail. If they can get it, good for them. Boy am I glad I bought a CA89 SD for $1,450 when Todd had his "Going Out Of Roller Locked Guns" sale. Overall it is pretty quiet but the can is very heavy. I sent my CA SD can to Mike at Rim Country. He said that Todd copied his design exactly. RCM is doing a run of their aluminum SD cans. I had asked Mike about the possibility of doing an upgrade of my Coharie can. Mike said that because the registered tubes are the same, he could install RCM internals and lighten the CA SD can by 1 1/2 lbs. Some have to have HK on their guns and some don't. YMMV.

Scott

 

[nuge]

OMG, $5895.00 for a HK marked SD clone! Can you imagine the cost if they had used an actual HK SD parts set. They didn't say where the shroud came from. Or at least I missed that detail. If they can get it, good for them. Boy am I glad I bought a CA89 SD for $1,450 when Todd had his "Going Out Of Roller Locked Guns" sale. Overall it is pretty quiet but the can is very heavy. I sent my CA SD can to Mike at Rim Country. He said that Todd copied his design exactly. RCM is doing a run of their aluminum SD cans. I had asked Mike about the possibility of doing an upgrade of my Coharie can. Mike said that because the registered tubes are the same, he could install RCM internals and lighten the CA SD can by 1 1/2 lbs. Some have to have HK on their guns and some don't. YMMV.

Scott

So what do you think would be a reasonable price for this particular firearm?

 

[nuge]

So what do you think would be a reasonable price for this particular firearm?

It looks like the market already gave an answer - whether reasonable or frenzied is what I'd like to know...

 

[scottinthegrove]

It looks like the market already gave an answer - whether reasonable or frenzied is what I'd like to know...

That you'll probably never know. A "reasonable price" is a relative term. Is my CA SD of the same quality of a converted 94? I'd think most collectors, including myself, would say no. The pictures of the 94 SD looked good. To me personally, a SD conversion that is almost four times what I paid is not "reasonable". For a little less than $4,600 I bought the CA89 SD including a can, a CA89K with a full size receiver (reverse stretch), a CA89 40 in .40 S&W, and a CA53 AR. Again, I'm not under the illusion that the the four CA guns I bought are equal in fit, finish, and quality to a custom HK build. Even adding in the cost of three RCM bolts for the three pistol caliber guns, I feel that I have a better value. Would that be true for all collectors of roller locked guns? Some just have to have "HK" on the receiver. I'm much more interested in how it runs than who's name is on the receiver. The money I saved bought a lot of ammo. I use my guns at the range, not display them in my living room. But that is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Scott