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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been a handgun shooter most of my life...25 different models of pistols until I found the P7. Other than having a nice 1911 for heritage, the P7 is all I want and need in a handgun, and I sold all the other handguns I had. Seems like everyone I've ever handed one of my P7s to ends up wanting me to help them find one.

So, I'm a noob/rookie/poser when it comes to ARs and rifles really. I made a leap and bought a MR762. I bought it mainly because it will be used mostly for distance shooting, and I bought it with the potential of putting a can on it down the road as they are legal in my state.

So, I have this incredible piece of HK weaponry with no sights, no tripod, no scope, no mounts, etc. It sure looks good in the safe, but I was thinking it might be nice to shoot it :)

Most people go into this having more AR experience and knowledge of accessory brands. I'm holding no cards though. Also, I'm missing basic knowledge about scopes and sighting systems. I've owned some fixed power handgun scopes on some Freedom Arms that I once owned, but I've never purchased a rifle scope. Also, I've owned Docter Optics red dot sights before. It seems like people like to use that in tandem with a scope on ARs.

I've been trying to read some of the recent posts about 762 optics and I see that the ultimate recommendation is W E L C O M E. I'm not sure that I want or need to drop that much $ on the scope. I had more like $1,000 in mind for the optics.

But I would really appreciate your thoughts about how you would build up a stock MR762....mounts, optics, bipod, etc.

Thank you!
 

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Unfortunately at this time, I don't feel that S&B offers a scope to bridge the middle ground that guns like this, the LMT MWS, and the KAC EMC stand on. Many will tell you the 1-8x is the way to go, but S&B has yet to release theirs. And since, I recently found some of my own threads referencing the S&B 1-8x release date over 2 years ago, I wouldn't bother waiting a minute longer. It is rivaling the MR556 in terms of anticipation and disappointment in those regards. Those that have actually demoed this scope all say the same thing: "it's good, but $3k is absurd for an 8x optic, and it excels below 4x, so why not the 1-4x." These were sentiments from Frank Galli who made the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxHWCDP2msE

and the thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2662626&page=1

Personally, I would take a good look at Nightforce's 2.5-10x32mm offering. NF's are an excellent balance of quality and affordability. They are basically a no-frills, no-BS line of scopes. The offering I mention above gives a fair amount of magnification, in a relatively compact size at an affordable price. I would start looking here:
Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x32 Rifle Scopes for Sale! - EuroOptic.com

As for the mount, Larue, ADM, GDI, Bobro are all top notch

For a bipod, the Atlas is the standard in the tactical precision world. Unfortunately, they are pricey but are worth it. The one on my AI AW with the spigot adapter is so robust, i'm fairly certain you could beat a man to with it and not break it.
http://www.accu-shot.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=66
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's a lot of great info! Thank you very much. Is a variable scope going to be the only way to go or would a fixed 6X combined with a docter type red dot be a solution?
 

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That's more up to you. Personally, I don't care for piggy-back/off setting red dots. They are almost always in a position where one has to adopt an uncomfortable cheek weld to use it. And what if you don't use it all that often (inside 15 or 25 yards); now you are left with just s 6x scope. I would go with the variable like I describe above. The 10x would make it more useful at some of the longer ranges your rifle should be capable of. 2.5x can be used effectively down to relatively close proximity. Because let's be real for a minute in that you probably aren't going to be clearing rooms and doing CQB with it. It appears you already have a pistol for that if need be ;)
 

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My belief is that you, as a new rifle shooter, should learn your weapons system before you worry about blowing a boatload of cash on optics that you don't know will necessarily be "right" for you.

My suggestion is to go with a cheaper (as in cheaper the the S&B type "super optics" currently being pimped in this thread already) and learn your gun with an optic that is capable of reflecing the rifles capabilities and also allows you to properly gauge your personal abilities.

I would suggest you start out with a good fixed 10x optic such as Leupold 10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope, and make sure that you can practice until your performance is up to par with the rifle.

After you perfect the fundamentals of marksmanship on the rifle and have developed an idea of the pros and cons of the fixed power optic, which ranges you like to shoot at, which ranges you would like to stretch out to and have an understanding of what is needed to do so, then I would suggest looking at different optics such as the ones already talked about in this thread. It'll be easier to understand the capabilities that have been discussed so far, and even better, you'll understand if those capabilities match what you want to be able to do.

If you do decide to move on to a different optic, you'll have no problem recouping a fair amount of your money in the scope I linked to (assuming that you took care of it), and you'll be much more prepared for what comes next. There's also a chance that you'll love the fixed power optic and keep it. And if you find out that you really aren't as interested in this kind of shooting as you hoped you'd be, you won't be out a boatload of cash on your optic as well as your rifle.

Start small, learn your gun, your optic, and more importantly yourself, then use your knowledge and experience to take the next step. It's better then jumping all the way in on the first try and finding out that everything is FUBAR.
 

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I'm just going to come out and say this before we get overwhelmed with Leupold suggestions. Only now with the introduction Mk 8 scopes are those in the precision shooting community saying that Leupold is regaining some of the ground it has lost for itself over the last 10 years or so. Sliding quality standards and their debated place of manufacture are only the tip of the iceberg. I have only owned 3 Leuplds (1 varmint, MRT 2.5-8x, LRT 3.5-10x). A friend of mine has the varmint scope and he has recently experienced problems holding his zero. The MRT had a canted reticle. The LRT adjustment dials had tracking issues past 10 MOA. So that's 3 scopes, 3 different problems. I called Leupold directly in regards to the reticle on the MRT and was advised that there is a certain acceptable degree of error. My issues were not isolated either. A quick search for Leupold failures will yield similar results. I'm sure this will generate responses like what is being seen on that 1911 where someone posts to defend their brand: "Well MY (brand X) had run perfectly for (Y) round count/time period" Whether you believe me or not, you can not deny that Nightforce or US Optics at nearly the same price points are getting these negative responses.

Leupold has also been a day late and a dollar short on nearly every innovation in the tactical precision scope arena. For example, it wasn't until this last year that they got in on the 34mm tubes. It was 2010 before they began offering mil adjustments. And it was '08 or '09 before they offered first focal plane options. They are behind by decade or more on ALL these innovations. That's pretty sad for an "industry leader". At this stage in the game, if I have the money to spend, why wouldn't I buy a S&B or Hensoldt if I have that kind of coin. If not that...Nightforce.


Grumpy has also pointed out the paradox of precision rifle gear. When you're starting out, you want decent equipment to learn on. This usually means spending a decent amount of money. It does you no justice to have cheap/undependable equipment that causes you to loose confidence in yourself and your gear. As you grow and advance as a shooter, you begin to develop your own tastes and preferences (reticles, adjustments, etc)...your palate if you will. Unfortunately, you don't know yet and none of us can tell you; we can only offer up what experiences have/haven't worked for us. If you're thinking of just buying trying and selling, be prepared to take a loss. With the exception of S&B's, I have taken AT LEAST a 20% hit on resale (some were even unused) with Leupolds, Premiers, Swarovskis, Elcans, and commercial Zeiss.


I will also warn you that the precision semi auto guns (namely AR/SR platform) offers a challenge even to experienced precision shooters. You are dealing with less forgiving ergonomics and now 3 separate recoil impulses rather than the single (recoil) impulse of a bolt gun. Thus, your fundamentals are even more critical.
 

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I have no product loyalty to Leupold. I merely suggested it because they have been, in the past, a solid optic and they still offer a fixed 10x scope. If I thought the Tasco 'Super Sniper" scope could effectivly perform the tasks that I suggested the OP perform, then I would have suggested the Tasco scope.

Does S&B manufacture a fixed 10x scope in the same price range as the model I suggested? If so, try that one instead.

I could give two ****s about who makes the gear so long as it performs to the necessary standard and allows the shooter to accomplish what he needs to.
 

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I had more like $1,000 in mind for the optics.
Then you might have a look on scopes from Vortex Optics. With Viper PST line of scopes you will get good glass for less than that. You can also look on their Razor HD scopes, however price is more in line with Nightforce and scope line is rather short (1-4x and 5-20x).

I had opportunity to fondle S&B 1-8x and I must say I prefer 1-4x over it. When you need more that 6x, then scopes that go down to 1x are not good for either 1x or 8x. If something does everything, it does nothing good enough. If you plan to be most of the time on lower magnification - go with 1-4x. If you really want broad magnification range - then IOR has very good 3-18x scope. Until you go for a mile, you do not need more. High magnification and large zoom ratio (over 5-6 times from lowest to highest) in scopes are rather fetishes that look cool on leaflets. For new shooter those can actually make things hard and increase learning curve, as they add too many variables to handle at one time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Very appreciative for the advice offered here. I will take some time, take it all in and hopefully make a good decision. Thanks again to all.
 

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^^^What kind of distances are you referring to when you consider this a "distance gun?" This going to be for shooting paper, hunting, or other?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Mostly paper and steel targets at about 300 or 400 yards. Some hunting (deer and coyote).
A side question. What is the effective distance once a suppressor is installed (using subsonic ammo)?
 

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If it's only 400 yds, then an 8X or 10X is plenty enough scope. There are a good number of alternatives, but I'd say a variable power in 3X to 8X/10X would be fine.

No idea about your effective distance question.
 

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Real life is not 'Modern Warfare 3' where adding a suppressor to your gun reduces range. I have a 15 year old son and suppressors so I know these things (I play MW3 with my boy and I shoot my guns suppressed).....

I terms of range, no suppressor affects the velocity of the round to either degrade range or increase it. Bullet performance will be the same regarding velocity and there is a good chance that the rifle will actually be more accurate as suppressors have been known in many cases to increase accuracy.

There are different theories as to why this is. Some think it's because the extra weight on the end of the barrel reduces barrel harmonics and some think it's because the suppressor causes the escaping propelant gasses to be equalized around the bullet in the suppressor thusly causing less deviation in flight after exiting the barrel.

Regardless, it won't affect your range, although you will probably have to re-zero as suppressors are known to shift your POA/POI. Once you take the suppressor off though, it will return to original POA/POI. In essence, you'll have two zeros for the rifle, one unsuppressed, and one suppressed.
 

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Mostly paper and steel targets at about 300 or 400 yards. Some hunting (deer and coyote).
A side question. What is the effective distance once a suppressor is installed (using subsonic ammo)?
Subsonic ammo reduces effective distance significantly. My SAKO TRG-22 (7.62x51) manual stated that with suppressor and subsonic ammo (220gr if I remember correct) effective (for military purpose, not making holes in paper) range is reduced to 200m from recommended 800m. Most rifle ammo bullets do not stabilize well with subsonic speed as well as ballistic coefficient goes downhill and they loose energy fast. However when normal ammo is used, suppressor does not reduce range. Some suppressors should not be used with normal ammo (like PBS-1 that we used for AKM in recon units), but most modern suppressors can fire both regular and subsonic ammo.
 

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Subsonic ammo reduces effective distance significantly. My SAKO TRG-22 (7.62x51) manual stated that with suppressor and subsonic ammo (220gr if I remember correct) effective (for military purpose, not making holes in paper) range is reduced to 200m from recommended 800m. Most rifle ammo bullets do not stabilize well with subsonic speed as well as ballistic coefficient goes downhill and they loose energy fast. However when normal ammo is used, suppressor does not reduce range. Some suppressors should not be used with normal ammo (like PBS-1 that we used for AKM in recon units), but most modern suppressors can fire both regular and subsonic ammo.
Would subsonics even cycle in an MR762? I'm going to guess "no" considering:


Also to the OP considering subsonic ammo. In long range precision shooting, the point at which a round goes subsonic is generally considered the point at which the ballistic performance of the round can no longer be predicted due to instability.
 

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If all you are ever going to do with the gun is punch paper at the range, any half decent "varmint" scope will do. I would go with as high a power as fits the budget, and still has clarity. Lower power only increases field of view, and if you're really only looking for something to punch paper, you won't need the field of view. Standard mounts are all you'll need to. No swing outs, QDs or anything else like that .... if, in fact, you're only punching holes in paper.

"Effective range" is a term used to describe the range at which a bullet is still has the energy to be able to effect a lethal wound on a living target. Not applicable to paper. What exactly do you mean by effective distance with subsonic ammo?
 

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Would subsonics even cycle in an MR762?
Probably not, Galatz that I shot with suppressor and sub-sonic ammo was not. Some would think of this as good feature, making it as silent as it can get.

But OP asked about other issues with use of subsonic ammo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thank you for the continued flow of info. To answer the question above...what do I mean by effective range. I'll break that down to two questions.

I didn't know if there was a typical distance where reasonable accuracy is not attainable with subsonic. Though looking at the posts above, it doesn't look like subsonic rifle ammo has great qualities here.

The other question I meant by effective range was the effective range to take a deer with subsonic. I have access to hunt in a place that is perfectly legal hunt land, but soccer moms in nearby neighborhoods start complaining and occasionally call the police.

One more question. If I buy the flip up sight for the front, is there a scope mount that would still allow me to use the irons? Seems like the scope will sit between the rear and front sight and block sighting.

Thank you again!
 
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