MR762 vs PSG1
I know I'm gonna get stoned for even asking this...:19: but how's accuracy & quality compare between new MR762 & old PSG1?
MR762 is manufacturing w/ current technology and at $4000 price range for one .308 rifle... it's gotta be good.
Any thoughts?
MR762 is manufacturing w/ current technology and at $4000 price range for one .308 rifle... it's gotta be good.
Any thoughts?
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Apples and oranges. Piston guns are not sub-MOA guns. The G28, based on the MR762, underwent extensive improvements to get its 1.5 "duty-use" MOA rating.
Consider all the things that the PSG-1 has that the MR762 does not...
24" bull barrel
Reinforced receiver
Delayed blow-back
etc...
The MR762 is very accurate for what it is, respectively. A PSG-1 it is not. Great question though!
Consider all the things that the PSG-1 has that the MR762 does not...
24" bull barrel
Reinforced receiver
Delayed blow-back
etc...
The MR762 is very accurate for what it is, respectively. A PSG-1 it is not. Great question though!
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PSG-1 is a very neat rifle
Another example of HK kicking ass in design
Another example of HK kicking ass in design
I've never seen a PSG1, but various ads on gunbroker have shown the 300 meter test targets that came with the guns that aren't extremely impressive when it is assumed a qualified, experienced marksman is testing them, let alone, presumably using some sort of bench jig. Don't get me wrong- I'd love to own one as a collector, and never will, but just because a weapon is capable of pinpoint accuracy, it doesn't mean the user will make sub MOA hits with it for his $10k-$20k expenditure I've seen them offered for. Neat as HELL, but way, WAY over valued, and mainly for their rarity. Research seems to show most departments agreed. I would like to see a comparison someday using one experienced marksman between a PSG1A1 and a G28. I seems to be obvious how the military feels. The PSG1 has seen its day.
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Can't assume anything on those PSG1 test targets other than the gun functions. We do not know the conditions nor the criteria for which those are held to.
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The price tag you see today is not the orginal MSRP of the rifle. In the late 80's, I could have bought a PSG-1 from a local gun range here for $3000.00 NIB.
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The MR761A1 and PSG1 are not in the same class. I have fired various PSG1's that printed groups with factory ammo @ 1/4" at 100 meters fired from a bench using a simple rest. SUB 1MOA even SUB 3/4MOA is common for the PSG1. The factory test fire targets delivered with PSG1's are fired at 300 meters with factory ammo for accuracy and most often are under 3 inches. The PSG1 was purpose-designed for accuracy and speed of engagement with no cost spared which is why it costs $12000+ versus the advertised MSRP of @ $4K for the MR762A1.
The MR762A1 was not designed to be a sniper rifle or to replace or even compete with the PSG1. It is an assault rifle/match rifle the civilian buyers have asked for as close to a FA HK417 as the current laws/regs allow, a semi-auto version of the HK417 (as the HK91 or SR9 is a semi-auto variant if the G3). I have seen the factory accuracy test data for the MR762A1. While it is good it is not to the level of the PSG1 nor would I have expected it to be.
As for op rod AR's not being accurate that is simply not true. I have fired countless op rod AR's to include the XM8, G36 and especially the HK417 that outshot any comparable DI or roller-locked gun in their class, ofetn during detailed Govt tests. I have reported here often the performance of one of the first 12.5" barrel HK417's prototypes tested by the users at Gunsite in 2005. The average groups fired out to 500 meters from multilple shooters firing M118LR ammo was @ 1MOA FIRED OFF A RANGE BAG FOR SUPPORT with mild left to right winds.
One test sample HK416/M27 IAR with @ 8K_ rounds through it outshot a custom USMC M16A2 match gun with a national class USMC team shooter last year firing a score that matched his all time high for that same course of fire. There are special recce variants of HK416's in service that perform as well or better then custom made DI guns which the HK416 recces replaced. A randomly selected 10.5" HK416 fired sub-1MOA groups with IMI 55 grain BTHP AFTER firing 12K rounds during the lot acceptance testing at HK GmbH in 2004 of the first batch of HK416's to be delivered to US SOF forces. We fired an 8" LWRC M6 PSD in 6.8mm at Fort Benning at 300 yards that printed 8 inch groups on average from a fixture. The SCAR H is an op rod gun that is being fielded in a sniper variant that outshoots the DI operated KAC M110 SASS.
It is a myth that ALL op rod AR's are inherently inaccurate, or less accurate then comparable DI guns. If built properly they can be just as accurate as any other style AR platform.
G3Kurz
G3- isnt the G28 positioned as a sniper rifle in one of the variants? If so, are there different "select" barrels chosen for them above and beyond the "average" 417? And if that is true, wouldn't a "match rifle" civilian model, using a "select" barrel be competitive with PSG1 performance in skilled hands? I guess what I am asking is just how different is the performance of a rather expensive "match rifle"- one marketed by name, for competition, than the PSG1? I have mentioned that the 300 meter test targets I have seen for the PSG1 were excellent but not outrageously different from what I would expect from a true "match" rifle of the same caliber, both using quality optics.
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My friend who initially was military designated marksman, then become Police CT sniper says that both tasks and equipment requirements (not only for rifle, also for optics) are much different. Long story tough.
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For sure!
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Lot of different stuff. They started in Police with SVD that they used in military (it was early 90s), but later they got lot of new stuff. I'm not in position to share details.
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Your's is a somewhat difficult question to answer Brahma. It all depends on the requirements that the various rifles you mentioned were built to. HK designs its guns to meet a list of requirements. The German Army was looking for a 7.62mm NATO rifle to fill the role of the designated marksman (DM) which is generally a long gun shooter within the squad/section/platoon with some additional marksmanship training beyond that of the common riflemen. DM's are generally expert rifle shooters who are selected to attend additional DM training (usually 3-5 days within his own unit) and then receive a select version of the standard AR, which is how the G3 SG/1 came about and was employed and preferably "blend" into the squad. As the Germans no longer use the 7.62mm G3 as a standard battle rifle (though did refield some in a limited DM role for AFG before the G28 came along) the Bundeswehr went to HK for a rapid development in 7.62mm NATO for Afghanistan as no 5.56mm NATO weapon was getting the job done. I have learned that the Germans wanted to use standard German 7.62mm NATO ball ammo in the G28 DM so automatically it is limited in accuracy by the ammo.
A true sniper rifle is generally a system with the rifle, special sniper-grade ammo, unique sniper equipment/accessories and school trained sniper who probably has weeks versus days in training and has to graduate from a sniper school after meeting strict standards. Generally the sniper operates in a team with spotter(s) and is not permanently assigned to a squad.
The ""MR" in the civilian rifle designation of the HK semi-auto rifles was selected by HK GmbH staff member Marc R. e.g. "MR" who was/is PM for the pair. I suspect he picked the MR because they were his initials and "Match Rifle" was easily "sellable" to the officials in Germany and for export sales where those officials would back away from another "AR" (assault rifle). I am unaware of any HK specifications for accuracy for the MR762A1 as there is of course no civilian specs for rifle accuracy so companies build what they believe is sellable. What we do know is that the MR762A1 configuration is that which HK knew they could import, assemble and sell in the US considering existing import laws and ATF regs.
As for the German G28 sniper version, I am unaware of what requirements that was built to if any. We know HK wamts to gett 100% way from any sheet metal roller-locked weapons like the PSG1 and MSG90 (too costly to make) so my guess is G28 is intended to fill that role. f these guns perform like the PSG of MSG they need to get this info out if they hope to compete with other less expensive guns in the same category that are available and already fiedled such as the KAC M110 SASS, the FN SCAR/MK17 Sniper Variant and the LaRue offerings.
Thing is this. If HK gets a requirement to build into a platform a certain degree of accuracy they usually can met that requirement during the design and testing phases as long as the ammo can perform to the level of the rifle. Designing a sub-MOA rifle that has to shoot ball ammo is wasteful and futile. In many cases US DM's armed with Match-grade M14's are only able to obtain M80 ball ammo versus M118LR so thier abilities are limited. The DM is more than a shooter with an accurate rifle but one that is of the right caliber (NOT 5.56mm) and has magnified optics and shooting accessories (bipod, match trigger) that allow the DM to more accurately find, ID and engage distant or concealed target as an integral member of his squad/platoon.
G3Kurz
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Yes. Very much so. Though the definitions vary the general description can be as follws.
Police Sniper
More often and more accurately called a "Counter Sniper". They are usually armed with sniper-grade rifles and ammo with sub-MOA capability and operate as a 2-man team (shooter/observer-spotter). They take their instructions from a team leader/commander who almost always controls their engagement options and usually have attended at least one multi-week outside sniper training course to become qualified as a sniper. They are generally very good in urban environments and proficient position/movement shooters. They usually do not have offensive capability/authority (expect in illawful scenarioes like Ruby Ridge ID) and are reactive/defensive in nature. Most of their training is focused on shots under 100 meters. > 400 meter shots would be rare.
Designated Marksman
These are select military riflemen who are an integral member of a small unit (squad/platoon) and operates usualy alone (w/o a spotter) with that unit as a DM. Often their rifle is a select "accurized" variant of the standard battle (M16/MK12, M14/M21, M16/M110 SASS, HK416/HK417, MK16/MK17, AK/FPK, M1 Garand/M1C/D, etc.) rifle so that he does stick out and become the first target of an enemy sniper. He generally has been through 3-5 days of DM training within his division and has a capability of from 1-2MOA using standard issue ammo but his ability with the variable high magnification optics makes him the eyes of the unit and save the 7.62mm LMG he has the only organic squad/platoon weapon precise enough at long ranges to deal with threat weapons like 7.62mmR PKM's and SVD's. As an experienced member of an infantry squad he would be highly proficient in all environments where his unit is operating. His engagement authority is both offensive and defensive and under cntrol of the small unit commander. Shots at the MER of the rifle (600 m to maybe 800m tops) would be within his capabilities. The EOD precision marksman would fit into this role.
Sniper (Military, SOF)
Specially selected, trained and equipped "talent" assigned to a special role as "sniper/observer". He usually has attended various multi-week sniper courses and as a team is assigned from a larger unit or cell in support of other elements within his overarching oranization. His capabilites are immense usually including call for fire skills, laser target designation, advanced commo skills, anti-materials capabilities, firing from helos, and long term recon training, etc. His weapon is capable of sub-MOA accuracy, he has various types of special purpose ammo available and he is trained on more than just one weapon/caliber. He would be highly proficient in engaging targets at or beyond the MER of the weapon(s) he is qualified on and rules the 800m and beyond portion of the battlefield. He is a combat multiplier who can decide for the most part who lives and dies within his opponents lines and as such is always the first target of his sniper opponent.
Again there are many variables to this and much crossover but in general terms this applies.
G3Kurz
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