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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Me: normal citizen with small amounts or training and experience (CCW, Lethal Force Institute Advanced Handgun 1, and LFI-1. I've shot roughly 6k rounds in the past 7-9 months I've been training with handguns.

Point 1: staging the trigger on any gun might work for small increases in accuracy and speed but when under stress you will not be able to stage the trigger. The solution to this is pulling from the front to the back each shot. Staging the trigger might be great in competition etc. but in my training I want to keep my training and muscle memory as close to real life as possible. It is very hard to replicate the amounts of stress that one would encounter in a real life shooting situation but you should train with a trigger press consistent with a technique that will work under stress.

Point 2: I thought I liked the trigger on my Glock 26 (more than my USP-note at that time V1) after I shot 1,500 rounds in LFI-Advanced Handgun bc my speed went up dramatically and my accuracy improved. At the time I felt like I could really shoot very fast with more accuracy than before (with either weapon).

Point 3: During LFI-1 I was informed that even the most highly trained shooter will not be able to stage a trigger when in a real life situation. Thus it makes sense to train full trigger stroke, that way it will apply in a real life situation (note Mr. Ayoob does this himself with his G30 and NY trigger). I tried to test myself with both staging and full stroke (on my USPf 45 w LEM) and found that under medium speed drills I could shoot slightly better staging...but under absolute speed I could maintain very near the same accuracy with a full trigger stroke. If I tried to stage the trigger at full speed I would just double clutch it and I would slow down noticeably and have decrease in overall accuracy.

Point 4: LEM is not a competition trigger (and you might note HK isn’t the choice among comp shooters) but I have found it to be very smooth and it works very well for a full trigger stroke. I had a local gun smith changed my trigger from V1 to LEM about 200 rounds before LFI-1 (which was taken after LFI-Advanced Handgun 1). LEM is great for a double action and feels far better to me that the V1 trigger in single action. For long distance accuracy shots you can stage the trigger if you need/want to, but at close range you can just keep rolling it smooth and it’ll cycle and get back on target as fast as the gun cycles and you can develop the muscle memory.
I am not pretending to be a veteran of handgun tactics, I’m just reporting what I’ve heard and experienced. I don’t pretend to know about everything but when people with a lifetime of experience tell me certain things are given under high stress I tend to believe them. I think the majority of people who own HK’s do so because of real life reliability and accuracy not trendy bs or the new feature of the week. People react under stress differently than they do in far more comfortable situations, HK builds products that will work in high stress situations, and so far I’ve been very happy with LEM and HK.

Another note on my USPf 45. Some people will find the frame and grip a bit too square and large (some say un-comfortable) but I have found that the near 90 degree on the vertical axis of the frame (the four corners not the point or vertical aim angle) to be very conducive to quickly orienting the weapon to point strait side-to-side. I wouldn’t call the grip comfy but it does allow me to produce an extraordinary amount of pressure on it and it seems to relay it’s point direction prior to me seeing the sights because of the 90 deg angles. I have strong thin fingers (eg. Can hold 100% body weight on second knuckle of two fingers of one hand with moderate difficulty).

Any of your personal comments, training and very high-stress situations experiences would be greatly appreciated in relation to trigger control and point aiming techniques.
 

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Thanks for sharing your experiences. Very thought-provoking.
I've been meaning to try the LEM modification on my V1 and this makes a good argument for it. Interestingly, I find the P7 trigger pull to be very "linear" and so staging actually works against me even in slow, aimed fire. A straight smooth pull yields excellent performance. I see now that that might actually be an advantage in realistic training as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hmm,

I don't really have a good pic handy but I'll try to describe it a little bit better. Grab onto a pull up bar with one hand and only use two fingers to hold yourself off the ground.

I've been climbing for quite a while so the muscles in my forearms have developed quite a bit. When I was in Spain I trained like mad and got down to 155lbs (6'1") and my forearms measured a larger circumference than my calves.

Here is a pic that shows my left hand in a two finger pocket. That section of the route is overhanging and the preasure on the left pocket is very extreme, imagine the right hand just trying to pinch a 90 deg corner of a building.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f378/haydenlake/chaincrouching.jpg
 

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Moving on

Mark I'm glad you've gotten some training; I respectfully suggest that (time and money permitting), you try somebody other than Mr. Ayoob.

Every Instructor has a different....position.... on things.

I encourage you to keep your mind open, and to be sure to seek training from every source possible.
 

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The USP and P2k platforms were built for combat accuracy, as was the LEM...it continues to shock me that anyone would use either for anything else. There are a few guys that use the USP for competition without being heavily moded, and good for them, but they are the minority. People who treat the LEM as a two stage trigger are missing the big picture IMO, that or they just use their guns for playing on the range.

I find that with very little practice it is very easy to have a solid continuous trigger pull with the LEM, its all carry anymore, I love it.
 

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This was good info. I am always looking for advice on how to shoot the LEM trigger better. I get to play with a P2K 9mm LEM from time to time and I find everytime I shoot it I get alot better. The best advice anyone could give about LEM is to squeeze the trigger from front to back in one full motion. I am used to the heavy DAO trigger on my J-frame, so the LEM is a pleasure to shoot compared to that little guy!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Mark I'm glad you've gotten some training; I respectfully suggest that (time and money permitting), you try somebody other than Mr. Ayoob.

Every Instructor has a different....position.... on things.

I encourage you to keep your mind open, and to be sure to seek training from every source possible.
I totally agree, each different person can offer a different and equally valuable perspective. In my short amount of time training/shooting I've learned a lot but I'm just starting. So far spending $1,200 on training in 9 months has been about as much as I can afford.
 

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And you're already ahead of 99.9% of the gun owning/carrying public!

Also keep in mind that anytime you have a gun in your hand, you are learning....by teaching yourself.

Be sure to put yourself under stress by forcing yourself to do hard things....things you don't like to do...things you're not good at.

By teaching yourself, you go to formal training with the best kind of knowledge....which is self experience.

Consider trying IDPA/USPSA/Bullseye...anything structured where someone else is directing your actions...this can force you to act under a small amount of stress, which in turn leads to self-learning....and so on.

Good luck and have fun.
 

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Staging trigger only works when you do one of those shooting sports where you shoot 10 shots in 10 minutes...yawn! Or where rapid fire is 10 shots in 1 minute...yawn!
 
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