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Discussion Starter #21
For everyone going on about the spring, I believe that HK changed the alloy in the springs. After loading and unloading the 17 rounders several times beside brand new 15rounders, thanks to the recent mag deal, they feel like the spring tension is stacking at the same rate in each capacity magazine. I don't have the right equipment to test this for sure, maybe some of the ones that do will pipe in after they get back from shot show.

For the mag bodies, after taking them down and looking inside with a flashlight they are identical, except for the two extra round counting holes. No extra grooves or anything like that. Unless there is a second model out there that we don't know about.

Hope this helps
 

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Thanks for posting this. I'll definitely have to keep an eye out to see when they are available on the Hk Webstore.
 

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I'm glad HK is finally catching up to everyone else in the magazine capacity game.
This is dumb. This isn't catching up. H&K has always taken a very conservative (i.e. absolute reliability a must) approach towards magazine design. H&K can make you a 500 round magazine for your VP9 if you want.

The traditional hallmarks of H&K mags were that they could be fully loaded without a tool or strain on the user and they could be loaded into a gun with a closed slide without strain (just push it in the magwell and it clicks in). For example, LAV recommends that you download your Glock 19 and 17 rounds mags for this reason. I remember watching fully loaded Glock 22 mags bow at the baseplate in the 90s.

I would like to see if the new mags still meet these old H&K standards. For me these are the signs of a magazine that has been properly engineered. If people want a 17 round mag a properly engineered magazine should be made (ie use math to determine the correct tube length, spring length, etc). ANYBODY can jam more rounds in a tube. Ramline and promag have been doing this crap for years. . If they want to save money, they could probably get away with an extended baseplate. If they just changed the spring and shortened the follower we are going to start seeing magazines wearing out faster, magazines breaking baseplates when they are dropped, and magazines flipping followers in the tube when dropped partially loaded.

Hopefully I am being paranoid, but I suspect we are just seeing another big move away from the things that traditionally made H&K the go to pistol for people who wanted something put together right. I remember a few years ago I had a burglary and my guns were stolen. I needed to go to the store and get a handgun for home defense. Even though I didn't own any H&Ks at the time I went down and bought a HK P30 LEM with NS because I was confident the H&K would be zero-drama reliable. This concerns me that this might not be the case from here on out.

I WANT TO BE WRONG about this.
 

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I don’t see this as HK catching up to their competition, I think they lost a bit of their edge which is “no compromise”. Wilson Combat already had arguably the best 1911 magazine on the market, but they wanted to surpass themselves (no compromises). So they kept the round count the same. They extended the magazine body slightly and went with a flat-wire spring. There were several other upgrades, but the result is a magazine with a lifetime warranty. Read the product description for the Wilson 1911 ETM Vickers 8 round magazine. So concerning this new 17 round magazine from HK... did they not know what they were doing when they introduced the 15 round magazine, or have they “compromised” with this 17 rounder? If used only for competition... awesome, just monitor your spring condition. But if your life might depend on it, I would take the magazine with a follower less likely to tilt and the heavier spring. I don’t think in a self-defense situation the extra two rounds would matter. Unless fending off a crowd of zombies, if you have to empty your magazine maybe you should work on your accuracy. The bottom line is if you ask a spring to do more in a given space, you give up something else. Show me how HK significantly improved the spring design, then I will believe they didn’t compromise. By the way, I’m not saying the new magazine will turn your pistol into a jam-a-matic.
 

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I’m hoping the fears of unreliability are unfounded. 17 round mags matter a bunch for USPSA. Allows you to run any stage with just 2 mags if you don’t have make-up shots. I was looking at ETS mags but now I don't have to. For certain the Factory mags will be more reliable than aftermarket.

I do understand people’s hesitancy though.
 

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I’m hoping the fears of unreliability are unfounded. 17 round mags matter a bunch for USPSA. Allows you to run any stage with just 2 mags if you don’t have make-up shots. I was looking at ETS mags but now I don't have to. For certain the Factory mags will be more reliable than aftermarket.

I do understand people’s hesitancy though.
These 17 round mags will be useless for competition, at least for anyone that is serious about it.

In USPSA Limited and Carry Optics you should be running 140mm base pads for a 20+ round count.
These 17 round mags won't change that, or do anything a 15 round body and follower can't do with a 140mm base.

In USPSA Production and in IDPA, you are limited to 10 rounds. IPSC limits capacity to 15 for Carry Optics and Production.
So, these mags offer nothing to the competition shooter.
 

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I just tried this. It will hold 16 round this way, with no extra room. If you swap out to the 17 round base plate you get about 1/3 of an extra bullet. This is true no matter which mag body is used.
This is mostly on the follower. because it is cut for the thinner spring of the 17. If you took the follower out and took a dreamer or exacto knife to it and trimmed the inside out till it matched it may work, but you would probably need to use the 17 round base plate cause it looks like they changed the depth of the retainer tab/tab hole on the locking/base plates
I would not want to run in the 16 round configuration because the top round is really tight and may not strip. Also on the last round it could fail to feed, because the mag spring is not seated properly.
Thanks for sleuthing.
a.) 17rd Follower. The bottom tail/spring-seat is different. Is the top (cartridge seat) the same profile as the 15?
b.) 17rd spring is ‘thinner’. You mic’d/calp’d this in several spots?
c.) 17rd baseplate/bumper. From the pic/resolution, it appears... the top (where it hooks to the body), is the profile/mold the same as the 15? Is the difference is that the baseplate is thicker on the bottom portion?
 

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Just curious, how long have these been out and available to the public? All this speculation about durability and 'compromise' seems premature. I use same 3 mags, mostly 2 for range work, between them, some easily have 30K rounds through them without any issues. I also have left mags loaded with SD ammo for over 4 years, pop in the mag well and guess what, feeds perfectly.

Educate me, please.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Thanks for sleuthing.
a.) 17rd Follower. The bottom tail/spring-seat is different. Is the top (cartridge seat) the same profile as the 15?
b.) 17rd spring is ‘thinner’. You mic’d/calp’d this in several spots?
c.) 17rd baseplate/bumper. From the pic/resolution, it appears... the top (where it hooks to the body), is the profile/mold the same as the 15? Is the difference is that the baseplate is thicker on the bottom portion?
GasGuzz,

A. The appear to me to be the same, if the cartridge seat/carriage section is different you either have to cast it or have tools I don’t have to measure it.

B. The spring is visibly thinner to me, the pic doesn’t show it well enough. I do not have a caliper or micrometer to do these measurements yet. I am in the process of acquiring reloading equipment for rifle, but have not picked these up yet.

C. There are two parts to that answer. First, the 17 baseplate is the same profile as just thicker (like 2mm I think). I believe that this was done to sit the locking plate deeper into the base plate. Second, on the locking plate they cut the top section down that blocks the follower. They also changed the profile of the button, on the bottom of the locking plate, slightly. I do not have the tools necessary to check how much.

The measuring that I have done has been with a good ruler and protractor, old school I know.

I hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Just curious, how long have these been out and available to the public? All this speculation about durability and 'compromise' seems premature. I use same 3 mags, mostly 2 for range work, between them, some easily have 30K rounds through them without any issues. I also have left mags loaded with SD ammo for over 4 years, pop in the mag well and guess what, feeds perfectly.

Educate me, please.
These are the new 17 round mags that HK just announced with the upgrades to the VP9 platform. They are not on HK’s website yet and I don’t think will drop until after SHOT Show is done or the upgraded VP9’s ship. I got these with my new P30L, which I was shocked to get with the 17 rounders. Anyhow I think mine slipped through the cracks and got shipped early with the 17’s. This gun was supposed to part of the last shipment, but when I asked I was told it should be in the first quarter of 2020 shipment. Hence the 17 round mags. Either it is that or someone at the factory was not paying attention to what they were sticking into the new gun boxes. Either way I am happy.
 

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I just got a shipment from HK VP9 OR (optic ready) , I know the new VP9 OR all come with new 17rd capacity mags , and the NEW VP9 OR will be standard guns going forward .
Cheers
 

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The measuring that I have done has been with a good ruler and protractor, old school I know.
I hope this helps.
LoL.
It helps greatly, you have a live sample, more than the speculation going on here. 'If 17 can fit in the same 15 box, it has to be a compromise'.
As for being included (early) with your unit, they simply moved the 17 parts bin to the production floor.
 

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That makes me think...is it like 17 lbs of sh!t in a 15 lb bag? Really though, my thoughts are that any reduction in the new 17 magazine reliability will be marginal.
 

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I am hesitant as well. I'm not knocking HK and I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say they've most likely executed the magazines right. I'm always in favor of increased magazine capacity as long as reliability hasn't been compromised.

However, as I've stated in other threads, I've always assumed that HK magazines had a more favorable envelope within most of their platforms magazines on purpose. A lot of people, myself included, have downloaded magazines, platform dependent, because of a lot of issues loading magazines to capacity propagate.

Whether the thinner magazine spring and occlusion of a coil does or doesn't cause any issues, there is still clearly a compromise within those new specifications. The only question is will the compromise present itself within functionality or within ease of manipulation of either the P30 or VP9 series of pistols, there is a difference.

Overall I was excited to see the offering, until I had a chance to think about it. I know a lot of people are just excited as it caters to the 'Rule', rather than the 'Exception', within the industry among comparable platforms and in the spirit of catering to the masses, which ultimately is what the VP9 was and the demographic for the offering... So in the spirit of good for business and keeping with the industry, I get it. However, avenues to increase capacity already existed. I for one really, really like the P30 and it's track record, performance and function. I truly hope that what I love about the platform isn't compromised. Two extra rounds isn't worth anything to me that is worth my previous price of admission.
 
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The Announcement by Hk was , its the same 15rd box , but a different follower and spring to accommodate 17 rounds.
 

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Based on the concerns about the loss of reliability with the new 17 round magazines, it is a minor miracle that those new magazines made it through the SHOT show range day. :)
 

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Oh ye of little faith...I highly doubt HK would compromise their quality reputation for 'me too' marketing.
This. HK likely tested the new mags extensively. Perhaps they’re using new spring steel that will stand the test of time. Perhaps they’re recommending the springs be changed earlier. Personally, I’d GLADLY take the extra two rounds(13.3% increase) even if it meant I had to swap mag springs earlier.

My only real concern is that they work 100%. Many other companies have been doing it for YEARS. I have faith in HK as they have never let me down in multiple decades of using multiple different varieties of their firearms.
 
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