[pb_removed]

C. Reed Knight III (Trey) told me flat out that he "doesn't see it happening" when I asked if KAC would follow suit with Geissele, Remington, DD and Vltor and make a Knight's Armament rail for the 416/MR556. So for those like myself that were wondering.....there ya go.

 

[TCBA_Joe]

Too bad. A URXIII for the 416 would be pretty cool.

 

[Grumpy]

Bummer. All of the new options that have come out recently, while i'm sure they work fine, look like a bag of mashed a**holes as far as i'm concerned. Knights was our only hope.....

 

[frogman342]

Knight makes nice stuff but he is always overpriced.

 

[Grumpy]

Knight makes nice stuff but he is always overpriced.

No argument there. Sometimes though, when they're the only game in town, it's worth it.

 

[frogman342]

Troy Industries is starting to make HK stuff for the MP-5 and G-36. Maybe he will also do some 416 stuff in the future. They make very good products.

No argument there. Sometimes though, when they're the only game in town, it's worth it.

 

[SDduc996]

Grumpy, you don't like the Remi or Geissele offerings?

Was there even a KAC prototype out for the 416?

 

[Grumpy]

Grumpy, you don't like the Remi or Geissele offerings?

Was there even a KAC prototype out for the 416?

Unfortunatly no.

I've never been a big fan of a naked freefloat rail tube.

Sure it's got the modularity of adding rails, but when you add enough rail space to make me happy, it will weight more then the current HK rail.

Funny thing is that it really is a case of "what was old is new again". Back in the early days of freefloat tubes for ARs (no rails) there was a segment of the AR owning population that added rail sections to the front of the old tubes on our own. I tried it and didn't like it then because of the heat transfer under large round count training sessions and I went back to the original Knights two piece RIS or regular two piece plastic hand guards until C-More systems came out with the first freefloated railed handguard system.

That being the case, I didn't like the naked tube with rails added back then, and I don't like them now. I have built several uppers to order with such systems installed for other people, and they work "ok" for the typical fireing schedule of the average Joe Citizen recreational shooter who wants a gun that "looks" badass, but who doesn't really plan on putting the rifle through its paces. To each their own. If others do like the new offerings, then that is great. More options is always a good thing and is a sign that the weapons platform itself is making an impact on the market to the point that dictates that more aftermarket parts are necessary. Always a good thing in my opinion.

They're just not for me.

 

[The Stig]

I'm not surprised KAC isn't making one. I think they hate piston ARs more than some people on this board hate chrome lining. I mean, first HK adds a forward assist to the 417, and now with this short stroke piston. If Eugene Stoner thought the AR should have had a piston, he would have made one with a piston. . . oh wait. . .

 

[pb_removed]

I'm not surprised KAC isn't making one. I think they hate piston ARs more than some people on this board hate chrome lining. I mean, first HK adds a forward assist to the 417, and now with this short stroke piston. If Eugene Stoner thought the AR should have had a piston, he would have made one with a piston. . . oh wait. . .

Their PDW is piston if i'm not mistaken. I'm not sure about "Trey", but Reed Knight has a great deal of respect for HK firearms.

 

[Grumpy]

I'm not surprised KAC isn't making one. I think they hate piston ARs more than some people on this board hate chrome lining. I mean, first HK adds a forward assist to the 417, and now with this short stroke piston. If Eugene Stoner thought the AR should have had a piston, he would have made one with a piston. . . oh wait. . .

HA!

It's kinda funny how most people don't realize that the DI AR is in fact a piston gun.

The only difference really between a "DI" AR and a "piston" HK416 is the location of the piston. Of course the location of the piston changes the dynamics of how the system works, but the fact of the matter is that they are still both "piston" operated systems.

Honestly, I think the M-16/AR15 series of rifles would be better described as an "Internal piston" rifle rather then "direct impingment".

 

[joehk]

I'm not surprised KAC isn't making one. I think they hate piston ARs more than some people on this board hate chrome lining. I mean, first HK adds a forward assist to the 417, and now with this short stroke piston. If Eugene Stoner thought the AR should have had a piston, he would have made one with a piston. . . oh wait. . .

In all reality, KAC has probably made the decision based on market.
There isn't a whole lot of MR556's out there and their not exactly flying off the shelves.

 

[Grumpy]

In all reality, KAC has probably made the decision based on market.
There isn't a whole lot of MR556's out there and their not exactly flying off the shelves.

And you know this how?

As it were, since I'd venture a guess that most of the aftermarket accessories for the 416 platform are being driven by Mil/LE end users anyway and that anything that trickles down to the Civ market is merely to generate extra cash flow to cover Christmas bonuses, your statement is invalid to begin with, much less backed by any sort of facts.

Just sayin'.....

 

[pb_removed]

And you know this how?

As it were, since I'd venture a guess that most of the aftermarket accessories for the 416 platform are being driven by Mil/LE end users anyway and that anything that trickles down to the Civ market is merely to generate extra cash flow to cover Christmas bonuses, your statement is invalid to begin with, much less backed by any sort of facts.

Just sayin'.....

I'm inclined to agree with Grumpy here. Consider some of the products KAC actually has introduced to the market. They have/had a NV mount of AI sniper rifles (Not much to go off there unless they get a contract with the Brits which I don't believe they have). While the MP5 and G3 RAS make sense, I don't know of many armies who have/had large amounts of 33's (save Malaysia) to warrant a 93/33 RAS, and MR556's should eclipse the 93 in production numbers.

 

[Grumpy]

I'm inclined to agree with Grumpy here. Consider some of the products KAC actually has introduced to the market. They have/had a NV mount of AI sniper rifles (Not much to go off there unless they get a contract with the Brits which I don't believe they have). While the MP5 and G3 RAS make sense, I don't know of many armies who have/had large amounts of 33's (save Malaysia) to warrant a 93/33 RAS, and MR556's should eclipse the 93 in production numbers.

Agreed.

Another product to consider is the railed forend for the G36. Why make one? Because the G36 has been adopted by several countries as their primary military small arm and there was the possibility of scoring large govt. contracts.

Had the G36 only ever been released as the sl-8 version, that product woudn't even have been considered by KAC.

 

[SDduc996]

I'm inclined to agree with Grumpy here. Consider some of the products KAC actually has introduced to the market. They have/had a NV mount of AI sniper rifles (Not much to go off there unless they get a contract with the Brits which I don't believe they have). While the MP5 and G3 RAS make sense, I don't know of many armies who have/had large amounts of 33's (save Malaysia) to warrant a 93/33 RAS, and MR556's should eclipse the 93 in production numbers.

The Turks, though it's probably an MKE.

 

[joehk]

And you know this how?

As it were, since I'd venture a guess that most of the aftermarket accessories for the 416 platform are being driven by Mil/LE end users anyway and that anything that trickles down to the Civ market is merely to generate extra cash flow to cover Christmas bonuses, your statement is invalid to begin with, much less backed by any sort of facts.

Just sayin'.....

It's an educated guess, based on usage numbers/economies of scale and many factors. One of those factors are:
When you build proprietary systems, the adaption of after market accessories is much less likely and prohibitively more expensive to design and manufacture.
Assuming the 416/556 design for the front rail is similar, the economies of scale are just not there for a KAC to spend the time and resources on such a propriety platform for the small market it is, compared to the M4/6920 platform.

Aftermarket accessories in the US firearms industry are more driven by consumers than mil sales, especially in days of government and defense budget cuts.
The US consumer bought 14 million gun in 2009.

Total estimates to equip 500,000 soldiers (US infantry #s) are in the 1billion $$ range. The economies of scale are not even close.

USA Buys 14 Million+ Guns In 2009 - More Than 21 of the Worlds Standing Armies

The USA’s M4 Carbine Controversy
"The positions were, and are, clear. The US Army says the M4 isn’t broken, and adds that an Army-wide fix would cost $1 billion."

There were 6 rifles manufactured by Heckler and Koch in the US in 2010, vs 11k+ for Colt defense.
From the ATF numbers. 6 - MR556's?? ha! All protos no doubt.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2010-final-firearms-manufacturing-export-report.pdf

Many like to think the mil drives product development more than it actually does. The civilian and LE drives most development in the private sector companies. IS KAC competing for some mil contract to create these rails?
For the players in the IC competition, the ultimate prize for being accepted is not government contracts, but the trickle down potential of being "the chosen one" for the US consumer market.

 

[joehk]

Looking at their accessories page, I'd venture to guess the sales of NV and M29 mounts etc are very small volume compared to rails, sights etc.
All the rest can be adapted to civilian carbines.

I'd also venture to guess, Knight didn't get in the "business" to immediately start fulfilling mil contracts.

Knight's Armament Company, RAS, Rail Adapter Systems, UK SAS, KAC, M4 Carbine, M5 RAS, URX, M4 Carbine RAS

 

[SDduc996]

I thought Knight designed and built those rails after seeing our SOF guys with flashlights taped to their weapons.

 

[joehk]

I didn't know that. My bad, KMC division is responsible for civilian stuff.