[Tungsten]

Today was my second time at the range with my new P2000. The first time, I let some of my complaints slide because the firearm was still caked full of the lubricating glop that H&K slathers them in before shipping. I figured that maybe the gun and I just needed some time to bond. The kicker was that three of us, all who are reasonably good shots, had the exact same problems with it.

Now I'm not so sure that I am as sold on the H&K as I was before and I am hoping someone here can tell me what's going on.

The gun seems to consistently shoot very low at 14 yds. As in about 4-6 inches low. It also seems to take considerable effort to maintain even a remotely tight grouping. Sure, I trust it to go bang when I pull the trigger, but I don't trust my accuracy with it enough to seriously consider carrying it right now. I sure wouldn't want to be put in a situation where a precision shot was required as the wrong person or thing stands a better than 80% chance of getting hit.

To prove to myself that I still knew how to shoot, I ran another target out to 14 yds and proceeded to make a nice tight 2" group with my Kimber Pro CDP II. I then ran another target out with just a single Shoot n See patch (about the size of a US quarter) and put one cleanly through the patch at 25 yds on my second shot -- missing with the first by about a half an inch. I guess I just needed to reaffirm that I could still hit the broadside of a barn.

I've got a set of Meprolight sights here that I am going to install as soon as the tool to do so arrives. Maybe a different set of sights will work better for me, but that almost seems a bit wishful based on what I experienced this and the previous time at the range.

I did notice that I had a serious tendency to tip the muzzle down during the final moment of my trigger pull. I don't do that with my 1911s, so I adjusted my grip somewhat and made damn sure I was doing all of the gripping with my off-hand and just pressing the trigger with my strong hand. That helped somewhat but it was still shooting low.

I'm pretty let down by the P2000 right now. I'll give it more time to "break in" and more time for me to try and acclimate myself to it before I write it off. Maybe something will click soon and it'll become the best thing since sliced bread.

Do any of you have any thoughts or suggestions? I'm not one to admit defeat easily but this really has me ticked. Does it sound like the shooter (me) ? Does it sound like the gun has a problem?

Thanks in advance.

 

[quikz]

All my P2000 LEM's shot great right outta the box. I did the same thing with one of them like you did as far as the packing grease goes.

It *MAY* be that you need to get acclimated with the LEM trigger and un-learn what you may have learned before. Not doubting your shooting capabilities, but sometimes, we may all need a self adjusting moment with a new gun/trigger.

I would offer you to try to work the trigger VERY-VERY slowly and program your mind for the way in which this LEM mechanism works. Try it in "DA" mode and also try it in "SA" mode.

I won a trophy with my high mileage P2000 9mm in LEM, so it shouldn't be a prob for you. Again, try and work the trigger extremely slowly at first.

 

[Would]

I think you are probably having trouble with the trigger. I have been doing the same with my USP. Im much more accurate and used to the trigger on my 1911.. But I've put about 500 rounds through the USP now and have worked most of my problem out and found out that it is actually a very accurate gun. I didnt know what the hell was wrong at first.

 

[Tungsten]

Guys thanks for the encouragement. I was wondering if it might be the LEM trigger and the fact that muscle memory is a bitch to overcome sometimes. I'm going to slap the new sights on and throw some more lead down range with it over the next few weeks and see if I can't make myself shoot better with it.

 

[Tungsten]

Oh and thanks for being kind and not immediately replying with "You don't know how to shoot" or some other derivative. I'm constantly impressed with how professionally everyone seems to conduct themselves here. It's refreshing to find a manufacturer-specific gun forum not overrun by keyboard commandos.

I've shot a lot of rounds down range with reasonable accuracy over the past 15 years. I do well enough at USPSA events so as not to absolutely embarrass myself and tend to tire of "range time" after about 50-100 rounds of stacking shots one on top of another. If anything, my experience today with the P2000 was the first time in a long time that I've actually shot more than 200 rds in one setting. It was kind of fun in a frustrating sort of way.

 

[NetJunkie]

Trigger control and the LEM. Just keep practicing and watch the sights as you pull the trigger.

 

[JLStorm]

40S&W is not at all 45ACP and 45ACP in a 4 or 5" barrel should not be used as a baseline. I would rent something in a similar size and weight in 40S&W and see how it feels. The LEM definitely takes getting used to, you need to have excellent mental discipline and recoil management to really excel with the LEM because there is no guess work involved you know exactly when and where the trigger will break and any recoil anticipation is going to kill the shot.

 

[MadMax2012]

.40 S&W strikes again.....

 

[kraigster414]

Great to see you here Tung. That LEM may take some getting used to I am told (as you know I have the sa/da). Which LEM setup do you have the standard or the light 5#? This is the place to pose your questions. I am relatively new here myself but have learned a lot about my new P2000 already.

 

[Tungsten]

Great to see you here Tung. That LEM may take some getting used to I am told (as you know I have the sa/da). Which LEM setup do you have the standard or the light 5#? This is the place to pose your questions. I am relatively new here myself but have learned a lot about my new P2000 already.

I'm not quite sure but I would guess it is the standard LEM pull weight. I agree, the LEM will take a little getting used to although in it's "SA style" mode it is pretty similar to that of the M&P you and I just got rid of.

For the record... I realize that the .40SW isn't the .45ACP and that barrel lengths play a role. I've also shot a lot more .40SW than I have .45ACP so I'm actually more "familiar" with that cartridge than I am it's big brother. My first .40SW ever as a USP40 about 15 years ago.

Thanks for the replies, all. You're building my cofidence back up in the firearm. It sounds like I just need to get more accustomed to the LEM trigger and work on my form a little more.

 

[JLStorm]

I'm not quite sure but I would guess it is the standard LEM pull weight. I agree, the LEM will take a little getting used to although in it's "SA style" mode it is pretty similar to that of the M&P you and I just got rid of.

For the record... I realize that the .40SW isn't the .45ACP and that barrel lengths play a role. I've also shot a lot more .40SW than I have .45ACP so I'm actually more "familiar" with that cartridge than I am it's big brother. My first .40SW ever as a USP40 about 15 years ago.

Thanks for the replies, all. You're building my cofidence back up in the firearm. It sounds like I just need to get more accustomed to the LEM trigger and work on my form a little more.

Ok so thats one potential problem down. The other thing that is a bad baseline are the triggers. I love HK and I love the LEM, however the trigger of the 1911 is just about perfect and will probably never be matched. comparing the LEM to that is like comparing a ford mustang to a formula one car...its just shouldnt be done.

If you are shooting as low as you say and its not the cartridge then Im almost certain its the LEM telling you exactly when it will brake and you anticipating the recoil by driving the muzzle down to lesson the felt recoil. One way to test this is to shoot the gun from a completely stable platform so that it would isolate your recoil response. Its important to have faith in the weapon if the gun is at all in question you owe it to yourself to confirm or remove your doubts.

 

[Would]

I'm not quite sure but I would guess it is the standard LEM pull weight. I agree, the LEM will take a little getting used to although in it's "SA style" mode it is pretty similar to that of the M&P you and I just got rid of.

For the record... I realize that the .40SW isn't the .45ACP and that barrel lengths play a role. I've also shot a lot more .40SW than I have .45ACP so I'm actually more "familiar" with that cartridge than I am it's big brother. My first .40SW ever as a USP40 about 15 years ago.

Thanks for the replies, all. You're building my cofidence back up in the firearm. It sounds like I just need to get more accustomed to the LEM trigger and work on my form a little more.

Yeah, like I said earlier I have shot 500 rounds through mine now and am getting used to it but not fully used to the trigger on these things over a single action 1911 trigger. I think once you get out there a few more weeks you are going to fall in love with it. Now that I'm getting better with it I like the gun more and more.

 

[kraigster414]

I'm not quite sure but I would guess it is the standard LEM pull weight. I agree, the LEM will take a little getting used to although in it's "SA style" mode it is pretty similar to that of the M&P you and I just got rid of.

For the record... I realize that the .40SW isn't the .45ACP and that barrel lengths play a role. I've also shot a lot more .40SW than I have .45ACP so I'm actually more "familiar" with that cartridge than I am it's big brother. My first .40SW ever as a USP40 about 15 years ago.

Thanks for the replies, all. You're building my cofidence back up in the firearm. It sounds like I just need to get more accustomed to the LEM trigger and work on my form a little more.

You'll get there bud. The P2000 is a quantum leap from the M&Pc, that's for sure. I still have the M&Pc .40 and am debating what to do with it. Lose it or use it. The one good thing about it is that the trigger has lightened up considerably. It's now breaking at 4.75 pounds. That's quite a bit lighter than the standard P2000 LEM. The really good news though is that you'll have no mag catch issues with the P2000 so we'll have to find something else to complain about. .

 

[Tungsten]

One way to test this is to shoot the gun from a completely stable platform so that it would isolate your recoil response.

I did try to do that today with the little platform at the indoor range but it wasn't ideal. Next time I'll take a few small sand bags with me and get a good rest with the weapon. It will have the new sights installed on it then as well.

Guys I can't thank you enough for the quick feedback on this issue. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[MaverickH1]

Are you aware that HKs hit behind the dot on the front site post, not on the top and not splitting the target? That would account for your low shooting.

As for the groups, I'd say you've gotten spoiled by good SA triggers and have grown some bad habits as a result.

At this point, I am completely writing this off as a shooter's problem. No offense intended... I just believe that it is.

 

[Tungsten]

Are you aware that HKs hit behind the dot on the front site post, not on the top and not splitting the target? That would account for your low shooting.

Yes, I did read that here somewhere else and went to the range this time mindful of that. It's still a bit lower than I would anticipate from not shooting with the sights aligned "pumpkin on a stick".

As for the groups, I'd say you've gotten spoiled by good SA triggers and have grown some bad habits as a result.

Habits, perhaps. Not sure they are entirely "bad" considering that I really don't jerk the trigger and have a very smooth range of motion when I squeeze each shot. I'm sure it could always be better, but I'm actually very critical of myself when I get careless and sloppy with my trigger control.

At this point, I am completely writing this off as a shooter's problem. No offense intended... I just believe that it is.

No offense taken and I agree. I think this shooter just needs to get used to the LEM trigger's nuances and program the right way to manipulate it into my lizard brain. Once I get it, I'm sure I'll be raving about how much I love the LEM system. Right now I'm just suffering some growing pain.

 

[MaverickH1]

Yes, I did read that here somewhere else and went to the range this time mindful of that. It's still a bit lower than I would anticipate from not shooting with the sights aligned "pumpkin on a stick".

Habits, perhaps. Not sure they are entirely "bad" considering that I really don't jerk the trigger and have a very smooth range of motion when I squeeze each shot. I'm sure it could always be better, but I'm actually very critical of myself when I get careless and sloppy with my trigger control.

No offense taken and I agree. I think this shooter just needs to get used to the LEM trigger's nuances and program the right way to manipulate it into my lizard brain. Once I get it, I'm sure I'll be raving about how much I love the LEM system. Right now I'm just suffering some growing pain.

I wouldn't think your habits would be entirely bad either. But that long trigger pull often results in some small mistakes on the shooter's part. For example, when I first got my LEM, I found I would tighten my grip while pulling the trigger. I didn't do that with any SA type triggers, but something in my head decided to tighten that grip. And that's one of those things that can still happen when you're fully concentrating on squeezing the trigger.

The bench rest test should let us know. So get to it!

And I agree, you will love the LEM system once you get used to it.

 

[kashton]

That is weird... I had the same problem with a P2000 V2 LEM .40 cal that I borrowed to shoot for a day from one of my local shops. It was used, and at the range it consistently shot 2-4 inches to the left of the target. I very much dislike the LEm after this one range session with it.

However! I decided to plunge into a purchase of a LEM variant of the P2000SK even though my experience with the P2000 LEM was a negative one.

I just bought a P2000SK .40 cal V2 LEM and have had no trouble with this one. It is a DREAM to shoot. I love love love it. It is extremely accurate and is a solid work of art. Ok, I've ranted enough about how awesome this gun is but I really do love it lol.

Kevin

 

[Tungsten]

The sight pusher that my brother is loaning me should arrive by FedEx tomorrow. The Meps are already here and I'm hopeful that Comp-Tac's MTAC holster will arrive via USPS tomorrow as well. If these things happen and the planets align, I'll take the P2000 back out to the range before mid-week and have another after action report for you all.

You know what they say... a bad day at the range is still better than a good day at the office.

 

[JLStorm]

You know what they say... a bad day at the range is still better than a good day at the office.

I dunno...Ive seen some holes in the ceiling of a few ranges, and Im betting whoever put them there was wishing he/she were back at the office when they had to explain the new ventilation system they had just created....