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G3Kurz, and 68Fan
From Grayguns, emphasis added:
I don't recall HK ever issuing a directive warning against this ammo, but I do know that changes to feedlips in the M8 and different magazine springs were introduced, ostensibly to deal with this issue. I do not believe that firing of standard-pressure 147's will negatively affect the service life of an otherwise correct and freshly-sprung M8 or M13.
That's pretty clearly an accomodation of 147 gr ammo in Graygun's opinion, different from your opinion but, like yours, based on extensive experience. You are also overlooking my twice repeated statement claiming use of 147 gr ammo only for pin shooting. The rest of my uses involve 115 and 124 grain. Gimme a break.

G3Kurz, I'm sorry you feel you have to cuss me out for thinking that 147s the way I'm using them is somehow an insult to you. That couldn't be further from my mind. I also believe it reasonable to believe that if 147gr ammo were detrimental to the P7 an official manual would say something about it. You know better? Tell HK. Wear out a pistol with 147s and get a refund. I merely observed a FACT that no such caution appeared in either of the two manuals I have seen. If you think that's disrespectful, that's something you're bringing to what I consider reasonable observations. Not my problem.

After more than thirty odd years in printing and publishing, I can safely say that writing copy is not the last word in what is published. That's why God made editors and, ultimately, publishers. It appears that 147 grain cautions made it into some manuals but not others. Is it unreasonable to suggest that the manuals are appropriate for the guns they accompany, that is: post mod guns have no warnings in their manuals. Or is HK really stupid enough to distribute a hodgepodge of manuals to be randomly mated with guns regardless of engineering or parts changes?

Finally, the idea that I'm an expert wannabe is ludicrous. The OP's question about issues with 147 gr ammo invited responses. I posted up front my admittedly limited experience (no problems) with limited use and I have found no reason to believe 147 grain ammo was inherently problematic to the P7, especially the way I've used it. I am, in fact, in agreement with other posters on this thread, including Grayguns. If anyone sees that as insulting, I am at a loss to understand why.

Some respondents in this thread have chosen to be disparaging and profanely so in G3Kurz's case not only to me but to others who are looking for reliable information. Internet sources are tough enough to refine without making the asking of certain questions or looking for verification punishable offenses. To those people I say, grow up.

I've got my answers. 147 grain ammo used for pin shooting is not going to hurt my M8, 124 Grain ammo is optimal for self defense. 115 grain is ok, too.
 

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Okay we all agree to disagree, or whatever.

I have addressed this issue in great detail in numerous posts and provided historically references to prove the points made.
The info is there for those who wish to consider it. So I won't need to go down this road again thankfully.
For those who don't this is still a free country last time I checked so go forth and do great things at your own risk.

The other thing I checked is the manual with the 147 grain ammo caution. It is there as I said but also as I said it is not in all 8 of the different variants. Guess you just have to take my word on it. I have never been proven wrong here ever that I recall.

Thanks for the PM's guys. It is true that those in the know stay away when they are questioned by those with an internet connection and a keyboard, and no experience on the subject. For that reason I will not post the manual ammo warning and will reserve it for my reference only.

G3Kurz
 

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I take it that you're paraphrasing what (some) people are saying, which is tantamount to telling G3Kurz that either he doesn't know what he's talking about, or that he's lying. Definitely disrespectful in my book.

We've all seen worse on other forums, but I think it's out of line-- especially on this forum.
Well honestly, if you find that offensive you have among the most easily bunching panties in the history of the internet.

The only 147s i ever intend to use in my gun work in my gun, that's all i know. YMMV.
 

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...It is true that those in the know stay away when they are questioned by those with an internet connection and a keyboard, and no experience on the subject. For that reason I will not post the manual ammo warning and will reserve it for my reference only.

G3Kurz
Scan it, Post it. Let it be a teaching moment for us poor slobs who are trying to learn and gain experience. That would be far better than than the vituperation and denigration I've experienced at your hands. Or take your ball and go home. I'll let you know how badly my M8 fares using 147s for pinshoots. Who knows, vindication may be at hand.

Proven wrong is not the issue, it's a matter of opinion as far as I can tell where two experienced P7 guys have opposing views on 147s, you and Grayguns both provide credible info. What is at issue is the presence or absence of cautionary statements in the manual and its association with the gun it accompanied. If you've got it, show it.
 

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Scan it, Post it. Let it be a teaching moment for us poor slobs who are trying to learn and gain experience. That would be far better than than the vituperation and denigration I've experienced at your hands. Or take your ball and go home. I'll let you know how badly my M8 fares using 147s for pinshoots. Who knows, vindication may be at hand.

Proven wrong is not the issue, it's a matter of opinion as far as I can tell where two experienced P7 guys have opposing views on 147s, you and Grayguns both provide credible info. What is at issue is the presence or absence of cautionary statements in the manual and its association with the gun it accompanied. If you've got it, show it.
^ This is why we can't have nice things.
 

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At the end of the day, this is a resource for learning and sharing information. It doesn't work very well when you drive away the people who are educating us. When someone is trying to help you, if you don't agree with them, thank them for their opinion, politely offer an opposing viewpoint, or keep your mouth shut. When you don't...

FU 4wire. This conversation is over. You screwed things for everyone.
G3Kurz
^ this happens. You should go back and read your post, 5wire. If it doesn't sound unnecessarily adversarial, you need to work on your communication skills. If you don't care about its tone, I'm sure one of the fine mods here will be happy to show you the door.
 

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Now can we lock it?

5wire, do you believe everything you read as the gospel? Many a useless statement has been made on paper and not worth the paper it was printed on. It seems you are putting way to much emphasis on the need for it to be written down vs just hearing it from someone who's been there, done that. This entire compilation of posts actually has little to do with the original topic and more to do with who's right or wrong. AFAIC, there is no need to discuss it further. Each will excersise our rights to do as we please so lets not go down the road of tearing down one another to try and prove some point.
I'll take G3's advice vs any lawyer blessed printed material any day. The way I see it he's more than qualified to give valid information than most folks here or any printed paper.
 

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Now can we lock it?

5wire, do you believe everything you read as the gospel? Many a useless statement has been made on paper and not worth the paper it was printed on. It seems you are putting way too much emphasis on the need for it to be written down vs just hearing it from someone who's been there, done that. This entire compilation of posts actually has little to do with the original topic and more to do with who's right or wrong. AFAIC, there is no need to discuss it further. Each will exercise our rights to do as we please so lets not go down the road of tearing down one another to try and prove some point.
I'll take G3's advice vs any lawyer blessed printed material any day. The way I see it he's more than qualified to give valid information than most folks here or any printed paper.
What an ignorant comment.
1. G3 says A
2. Grayguns says B
3 HK says nothing. Except G3 has a manual which does have a caution on 147s but he said he won't post it. Now he's cussed at me again and somehow I'm the one creating an adversarial environment.

Do I believe everything I read? That's not an option here, hkshooter, there are credible but opposing statements to read, if you haven't noticed, so I couldn't possibly believe everything I've read in this thread. Been there done that? Do you mean G3 or Grayguns? Both have significant claim to having been there and having done that. Grayguns in particular was an HK sponsored shooter, is that been there done that enough for ya? I already posted I had arrived at the answers I needed. Read the posts. I have torn down no one but I have been cussed at and denigrated for attempting to resolve contrary statements—not opinions— I've read in the thread. I have pointed out the apparent lack of HK caution. You may find it easy to pass off that omission as some kind of faulty organization at HK and you're accusing me of being gullible? Isn't HK among those putting warnings on pistols? Shooting lead projectiles? Handloads? Do you really think they'd pass up an opportunity to deny warranty service if 147s were unsafe or bad to use in the gun?

Your post telling me to "lock it" is what prompted me to respond. I was all set otherwise. G3 either will or will not provide an image of the cautionary HK manual page and identify the vintage of the gun it accompanied. Grayguns, with what must be hundreds of thousands downrange, didn't expect 147s would be detrimental to the service life and function of the P7. Since I only use 147s for pinshoots and I have had no malfunctions of any kind, I am satisfied the round is OK for my limited use of it and I use 124s and 115s for everything else. Who advises that?

I have not advised anyone else to go against G3's recommendation where the opportunity to have done so is clearly there given the "been there, done that" observations of a professional HK shooter. May I politely inquire: if you take G3s advice are you disrespecting Graygun's? How do you resolve those two opinions. Are you saying Grayguns doesn't have the qualifications to give valid information? I seriously doubt it but that's an inference hard to avoid in your post and in many of the others in this thread.

Finally, I don't see that it's up to you to invoke a "lock it" on an open thread.

For you and any other forum member who wants to take further personal issue with me because of what I have posted here, here's my email: [email protected] send something and identify yourself. If I am attacked, criticized, cussed at, or misrepresented in an open thread, I will respond in an open thread.

The ball's in your court. I'd be happy to continue a grown up type discussion on this subject but if you want to talk down to me, denigrate me and dismiss what I say, I will respond.
 

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I do not believe that firing of standard-pressure 147's will negatively affect the service life of an otherwise correct and feshly-sprung M8 or M13. If it works, good for you. -Bruce
I can't say that I agree or disagree with Bruce concerning this statement. All I will say is that he never says the rounds don't cause stoppages or malfunctions, only that he believes they will not wear out the gun beyond normal usage compared to lighter bullets. G3 says that he has seen and experienced malfuntions with 147's and gives a detailed explanation as to why they occured. So if I have to place a bias on one persons claims vs another, then yes, I chose to believe G3. Call me gullible if you like. Toyota claims that there is nothing wrong with the electronics in their throttles too. But I keep an eye on mine solely based on those who've experienced something to the contrary, regardless of what is or isn't printed in a paper somewhere.
 

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And if you read G3's comments carefully, he NEVER says that 147's will cause a PROPERLY FUNCTIONING, IN SPEC P7 to jam. Nowhere does he ever say that.

What he says is that if your piston is out of spec or the mag springs are weak, you'll get nose up malfunctions. IF your P7 is experiencing this malfunction with 147's, either your mags or your pistol are OUT OF SPEC. IMO if nothing else this warning of G3's tells me that firing 147s at least once a year is a good idea....as if your P7 is out of spec you'll get nose up stoppages, and you will be able to use this warning to bring your pistol back into specs by repairing it.

What we should all be doing is thanking G3 for this simple test any of us can perform to ensure our P7 is still within proper operating parameters.

All i can say for a fact is that i have test fired a couple hundred of the exact 147gr load i plan to use in one specific scenario- trail defense- it works flawlessly in my gun. So i know that my P7 is within specs.

For self defense i use 1300+fps 124gr +P Gold Dots, which should be close to the optimal operating round for the P7.

I just don't see where there was any insulting by 5wire, but whatever.
 

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hkshootersusp, the Graygun quote you posted was enough for me not to worry about my limited use of 147gr ammo.

Valorius, my M8 has had no malfunctions of any kind during about 7,000 rounds. Maybe 200 rounds were 147s. The rest were WallyWorld 115 FMJ or Speer Gold Dot 124 gr+P. Our experience is similar. I like the idea of using 147s for a "G3 test", nicely put.

Thanks for your comment.
 

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I'm thinking out loud here but I wonder how the energy applied to the gas system compares between the standard pressure 147gr and the +p 124?
 

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Discussion Starter #97
I'm thinking out loud here but I wonder how the energy applied to the gas system compares between the standard pressure 147gr and the +p 124?
Thats the one thing that does not add up for me..Its the increased slide speed caused by 147 vs other rounds Ie 115 or 124grain.

I shoot limited in USPSA. Most people shoot 180 grain bullets. Some people will shoot 200 grain and others will go 165. It is a noted fact that with a 1911 based gun the heavier bullet will travel slower(which is the case with the P7) and the slide moves slower. Master and Grand master shooters say with the 200 grain bullet they are actually waiting for the gun to get back into battery. For that reason they never shoot the 200grain because the gun is sluggish to them. The heavier the bullet the slower the slide.

If that is true and I know it is then how can a heavier bullet increase the slide speed of the P7? It seems the opposite would be true.

Now I do not doubt that the 147 grain bullet caused issues in the P7..and I follow G3's advise to the letter..But I cannot comprehend that the slide speed would increase with a heavier slower bullet. The slide has to move very fast with P+ 124 and 115 grain bullet..yet no issues with those loads.
 

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Scan it, Post it. Let it be a teaching moment for us poor slobs who are trying to learn and gain experience. That would be far better than than the vituperation and denigration I've experienced at your hands. Or take your ball and go home. I'll let you know how badly my M8 fares using 147s for pinshoots. Who knows, vindication may be at hand.

Proven wrong is not the issue, it's a matter of opinion as far as I can tell where two experienced P7 guys have opposing views on 147s, you and Grayguns both provide credible info. What is at issue is the presence or absence of cautionary statements in the manual and its association with the gun it accompanied. If you've got it, show it.
+1, If you've got it, show it.
 

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I thought this thread would have petered out by now. Let's look at some real numbers and make your own choice (combined with hands on work experience);
Higher the bullet energy (momentum to be accurate) more damaging it is. *This is assuming similar structure (HP)*The Cor-Bon 115gr. is still heading the list while the 147gr. ammo is in the bottom. *Material for thought?
Please note that the GECO is FMJ and not HP.
Table:
Cor-Bon 9mm 115 grain +P JHP. * * * * * * * | 1350fps | 466fp |+p
Speer Gold Dot 124gr. +P (GDHP) * * * * * *| 1220fps | 410fp |+p
Rem. express 115gr +P JHP (R9MM6). * * * | 1250fps | 399fp |+p
Win. Silvertip 115gr (X9MMSHP). * * * * * * *| 1225fps | 383fp |+p
Fed. Hyd.Sho. 124gr. +P+ (P9HS3G1). * * | 1170fps | 375fp |+p+
Fed. 115gr JHP (9BP). * * * * * * * * * * * * * *| 1160fps | 345fp |Std
Fed. 124gr Hydra-shok (P9HS1). * * * * * * *| 1120fps | 345fp |Std
Fed. Nyclad 124gr (P9BP) JHP. * * * * * * * *| 1120fps | 346fp |Std
Rem. express 115gr. JHP (R9MM1). * * * * *| 1155fps | 341fp |Std
Dynamit-Nobel GECO (FMJ) 124gr. * * * * * *| 1120fps | 341fp |Std
Win. 147gr silvertip (x9mmst147) * * * * * * | 1010fps | 333fp |Std
Win. Supreme SXT (Ranger) 147gr * * * * * | *990fps | 320fp |Std
note: chart courtesy of Walther forum.
 

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I wouldn't use 147 grain ammo in my P7PSP, or P7M8. I use 115 grain FMJ fodder at the range for practice and 124 grain JHP for carry.
 
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