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P7 accidental discharge?

13K views 55 replies 39 participants last post by  MarcDW 
#1 ·
Has anyone heard of the P7 series having a problem with ADs when the front strap is depressed?

I was told that is the reason that P7s are specifically not allowed by my departments policy...
 
#2 ·
I've never heard of this. Sounds like someone might have squeezed all of their fingers instead of just the ones of the cocker?
 
#4 ·
Just goes to show that when you try to make something idiot-proof, someone will always be able to make a better idiot. This P7 quirk is clearly discussed in the operator's manual:

ALL HK P7 PISTOLS CAN BE FIRED IN THREE DIFFERENT WAYS:

a) Depressing the cocking lever and then pulling the trigger (preferred
method) – single action.
b) Pulling the trigger and then depressing the cocking lever – double
action.

c) The cocking lever is depressed and the trigger is pulled simultaneously.


Then there's just basic gun safety--everybody knows you always keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
 
#5 ·
I had someone on another board tell me this "My department tested the P7's but heard about too many guys shooting themselves in the legs by accident when the squeeze cocker was depressed."

I asked him how this would be possible and he never expanded on his statement. Either he was bs-ing ignorantly and couldn't explain, or realized he was wrong.
 
#9 ·
NJSP got rid of their P7M8 because they were really old guns with a lot of mileage. Parts failure starts becoming a common problem.

They do have documented cases where the gun in fact did fail due to a broken firing pin bushing.

None the less, always keep the gun pointed in safe direction when you cock it.
 
#11 ·
Actually as has been stated above the P7 series can be fired in three ways:

"a) Depressing the cocking lever and then pulling the trigger (preferred
method) – single action.
b) Pulling the trigger and then depressing the cocking lever – double
action.
c) The cocking lever is depressed and the trigger is pulled simultaneously"
 
#16 ·
I can't attest to the validity of this story but I was talking to an ex Spec forces guy down here in Tampa who told me that

"Delta looked at that gun years ago but after an AD they went another route and got rid of them"

I trust this guy at his word but I am wondering if anyone else heard this
Name one gun where no one has ever AD. Bet you can't.
 
#13 ·
The only thing I've ever heard of that could cause an AD that was NOT due to poor trigger control was here, recently.

Someone had one that was firing when they RELEASED the cocking lever.

But Mark71 - you said they were trained to keep it cocked while holstering? Did no one RTFM? That's crazy.
 
#21 ·
But Mark71 - you said they were trained to keep it cocked while holstering? Did no one RTFM? That's crazy.

Yeah keep the gun cocked until the gun is in the holster. Thats what I heard from a few different guys including some older Troopers. I could swear that I also read it in a docment from the Attorney General when the Troopers were looking for a new duty gun. Saying that the gun would "accidently discharge" when placed in the holster.
 
#14 ·
I worked with a guy at a gun store about eight years ago that managed to shoot himself in the butt with a P7M8. He had gotten a new holster (leather OWB without a re-enforcing band around the top opening). He holstered the pistol and the holster compressed slightly and pushed the trigger back. Sometime later he was sitting at the desk behind the counter and for some reason squeezed the cocking lever on his holstered pistol. He shot himself right in the butt with a 9mm Magsafe. The ND was witnessed by others who confirmed that was exactly what happened.

For some reason the guy was carrying a Glock 19 when he finally made it back to work, yet another case of blaming the weapon for poor equipment and gun handling. He had a M8 and a M13 (he might have had two M8s and the M13, I can't remember for sure) and he sold them all off.
 
#19 ·
BTW, the proper way to operate the P7 is to get a full combat grip, and cock the pistol before you draw it from the holster. Finger on the trigger when you get on target. Decock as you bring the pistol into you chest on the way back to the holster.

On reloads, you cock the pistol at the same time you reslease the slide.
 
#20 ·
BTW, the proper way to operate the P7 is to get a full combat grip, and cock the pistol before you draw it from the holster. Finger on the trigger when you get on target. Decock as you bring the pistol into you chest on the way back to the holster.

On reloads, you cock the pistol at the same time you reslease the slide.
I don't cock it until it's on it's way up, pointed somewhere other than at my thighs, knees, or feet.

And yeah, the cocking lever IS the slide release.
 
#22 ·
There's a lot of "lore" out there regarding NJSP and the Staple Gun; dunno how much truth there is to most of it, but two of the recurring stories I've heard...

1. The ambidextrous magazine release behind the trigger was a direct result of NJ troopers routinely dis-engaging the heel-clip magazine release on the regular P7, when the gun was being evaluated, because the "evaluators" were firing OVER a barricade of some sort and could not keep the butt of the pistol off the hard surface.

2. Once the guns were bought, the ND problem during transition got so bad, the transitional training was moved to Fort Dix where the media couldn't go.

Whatever the real truth is, NJSP used those guns for a long time. When we sponsored a sub-gun class in 1991, HK sent a rep down to help. This fellow was a recently-retired captain from NJSP and seemed to be relatively high up the HK food chain. He was a garrulous, friendly guy; until the subject of the Staple Gun in NJSP service was broached.

I've got two of them, and the more I shoot/handle them, the more impressed I am. But it the absolute LAST thing I would hand to a duffer.

And that word (duffer), unfortunately applies to the great majority of policemen and firearms.

BTW... the wording in that NJ AG's office document about the P7s "going off accidentally" is simply bureaucrat BS for justifying a new weapon purchase.

One thing you learn when you get into the acquisition loop; its all in how you write the specification/justification...:49:

.

.
 
#24 ·
Yes, I meant by anyone on this planet.

The P7 should never be cocked or decocked in the holster. Cocking the gun in the holster doesn't give you a faster draw. I can do 1 second draw to first aimed shot with a P7 where I cock the gun once it is pointed at the target. It takes me the same amount of time to do this with a gun with a manual safety or with a gun with no safety. Cocking the P7 doesn't not take any additional time on a draw.

As for decocking in the holster, as I've said before, AD's have occur with the failure of the firing pin bushing. When that bushing fails, it can fire the gun on decock. If you decock in the holster, well you get a round into your leg.
 
#28 ·
Yes, I meant by anyone on this planet.

The P7 should never be cocked or decocked in the holster. Cocking the gun in the holster doesn't give you a faster draw. I can do 1 second draw to first aimed shot with a P7 where I cock the gun once it is pointed at the target. It takes me the same amount of time to do this with a gun with a manual safety or with a gun with no safety. Cocking the P7 doesn't not take any additional time on a draw.

As for decocking in the holster, as I've said before, AD's have occur with the failure of the firing pin bushing. When that bushing fails, it can fire the gun on decock. If you decock in the holster, well you get a round into your leg.
Ja, I knew what you meant. I was making the point that AD's almost always have some component of operator error. They're a lot like small plane crashes - sure, sometimes the direct cause was the heavy turbulence that tore the plane apart, but it was because some pilot flew into a storm because he didn't get a weather briefing.

And I'm totally with you on the cocking/uncocking of the P7. I don't care what the NJSP did, I'm not cocking or uncocking mine until and unless it's pointed downrange.
 
#25 ·
Landric. Sometime later he was sitting at the desk behind the counter and for some reason squeezed the cocking lever on his holstered pistol. [/QUOTE said:
Landric:

This person must take the short bus to work... "For some reason squeezed the cocking lever on his holstered pistol" ?

Hello?

This guy is so dumb he would probably hit himself in the head accidentally if his holstered weapon was a hammer.

Geeze..

PUT THE WEAPON DOWN MISTER... BACK AWAY SLOWLY AND YOU WON'T SHOOT YOURSELF.......

Jesse
 
#27 ·
Like many statements, that is _usually_ true but not _always_ true. I've had people try to tell me before that all AD's were actually ND's but my one and only experience says that isn't true.

I owned a Steyr AUG back in the late 80's and early 90's. Loved it, worked great. Took it out to some strip pit lakes in SE Oklahoma one day for some targets of opportunity. Got the rifle out, locked the bolt to the rear, applied the safety. Stood over on the side of the van with the rifle pointing down into the ditch. Inserted a loaded 30 round mag. Hit the bolt release. Finger nowhere near the trigger, safety on. Still.... it went off. It is very loud when a .223 bullpup goes off in your hands and you aren't expecting it and don't have on ear protection. I'm happy to report that my training had always been to point a gun in a safe direction when loading and unloading and so no one was hurt and my van didn't have a hole in it.

Investigation later showed it was a slam fire. It never did it with mil spec ammo but some commercial primers were so soft that it could and did happen. With that sort of ammo, it would sometimes give you a _really_ rapid 2-3 shot burst. Which used to get me some dirty looks at the military range on Hickam AFB.

Gregg
 
#29 ·
Is this thread for real.If you read my gun accidently discharged please come and get me so help immediately.I am talking mental help not for the wound because I would obviously the most ignorant person on the planet. Always point the gun away from yourself.At least if you accidently shot someone else you can work on an excuse.If I shoot myself it is because I mean to.Are there really LEO's that shoot themselves? The bullet come out of the front of the gun for all of those that do not know that. And I am supposed to have them protecting me! For the love of God.
 
#31 ·
Date: April 26 -30 1993
Place: Heckler & Kock, Inc
21480 Pacific Boulevard
Sterling, Virginia 20166-8903 USA
Firing range 1.4 miles from factory
Purpose: H & K Tactical Pistol Training by H & K Training Division
Course of fire: Day 1
Admin and Introduction
Safety and Semi-Auto Pistol
Principles of Markamanship
Load/Unload/Reload/ and Stoppages
Drawing the Pistol from the Holster 2- handed
Introduction Fire and Zero
Maintenance
Lets talk about Drawing from the Holster..WE went over and over this for about an hour and half in class. Grip and unlock gun...Break out of holster...non shooting hand indexed on belt buckle/meet the gun hand pushout and lock-in...COCK AND Engage ...down to ready DE COCK-(finger off trigger) TAKE BREATH break tunnel vision... with weapon DE COCKED Place shooting hand thumb over back of slide place into holster...lock-in...and this is straight from the course syllabus/course of fire... In 1993 12 students using P7M13's no ads/nds. Just about 1300 rounds per student discharged in 5 days. No problems with the guns. I bought one with the reduced student firearms purchase coupon. The good old days. My point is good training, good habits, helps to stop the ad/nd monster from rearing its head.
 
#32 ·
As a P7M8 owner I'm surprised to hear anout the accidental discharge reports. Seems to me it takes a concerted effort to squeeze the cocker fully, not something that can be accomplished simply by drawing the pistol. Maybe adrenaline or stress adds to this problem. It would not stop me from carrying the pistol.
 
#33 ·
Hello,
I am new here but can tell you that my P7M13 has accicentally discharged 4 times now. I have used it in IPSC for almost 20 years. Round count must be 40,000 to 50,000.

The Sear bar is worn (it has left to right travel), allowing striker movement and the Drop Safety has broken off.

Don't get me wrong, I am a BIG fan of the P7 series. I think they are they finest 9mm pistol we have ever seen but they are not infallable.

Mark
 
#37 ·
Markie, I'm sorry but those sound like they might be ND's, as it doesn't sound like you've been keeping up with all of the service that it would require? I could be wrong and do not mean to offend, but from your post that is what one would infer. Please post a more detailed description of the discharge -- and I apologize in advance if it was truely an ND and not a lack of maitenence issue.
 
#38 ·
With proper maintenance, a well designed holster and correct gun handling the P7 series is as safe as they come IMHO. I carry my P7s in a Del Fatti ISP/LP. I have the utmost confidence in the holster and the pistol. I don't have 40-50000 rounds through my guns so excessive wear isn't an issue. I carry my USP V1s cocked and locked as I do my 1911s. I've yet to have an issue with any of those weapons either. With safe handling, good maintenance and practice the P7PSP, or P7M8 make safe and effective carry pistols, but then I feel the same way about every about every HK pistol I own. :)
 
#40 ·
I'm pretty new to P7's but I've heard the New Jersey State Trooper story before. While getting to know my gun at the range I can say the trigger can be a bit touchy. I've double tapped a couple of times when I did not mean to. But once you become completely familiar with the Manual of Arms, I have to believe they are some of the safest guns around.
 
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