[Niff]

Hi all, after some research around on a new boomstick to buy, I have seriously been considering buying a msg91 as my next rifle.

After a reasonable amount of research I just have a few questions for you all if you are willing:

Recoil: I am not really a wimp, but I was initially hoping my next rifle would be hurting my shoulder less than my saiga 12 and Garand, if you can give an estimate for how much recoil to expect, as well as possible methods to reduce it if needbe (muzzle breaks, springs etc).

Trigger:Most of my research tells me the trigger is nothing special, and could really use some work, and that Bill Springfield is the man to do it. If you have any reviews and/or opinions on this, I would love to hear a bit more about his turnaround time, quality, and need of the actual trigger work. (For example, my saiga 12 NEEDS to be converted for full enjoyment imo)

Milsurp: I emailed PTR about it and got a very fast response:

Over the years through R&D, the use of new machinery and new processes we've been able to retain the excellent accuracy that we've always had and open up the ammo tolerance quite a bit. At this point all of our rifles, including the MSG-91, cycle most ammo you can find.

I understand the need for high quality ammo if I want to go for the sub-moa shots, but for general plinking, I would just like to know what should cycle well. (I also have 500 or so rounds of Chinese norinko 308 that if anyone has ever shot out of one of these guns, I would like to hear some success stories as well.

Fun: Last but probably most important, if there are any owners who read this, how much do you like to shoot your rifle, as this is probably the most important buying point for me in terms of a rifle for rec shooting.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

-Niff

 

[coprtoppe]

Hi and welcome!

Recoil:
See HKParts.net (site sponsor), for heavy buffers, comps, and recoil pads.
Bill Springfield customizes the standard HK type buffers for better recoil taming.
Ghilliebear makes a MSG-type buffer sold at robertrtg.com

Trigger:
Yes, Bill Springfield
Bill Springfield - www.TriggerWork.net

Ammo:
I shoot any mil-surp I find w/o issues. Have not shot for groups for a couple years...

Fun:
Well, ya!
I usually start my range/desert days w/Vector AK, glock...
And save the best for last

 

[Niff]

Thanks for the quick response coprtoppe:

The mil-surp you mention: is that out of a msg model or another ptr? And as for the buffers or compensators, do you have any personal recommendations?

As for the fun part, that's reassuring!

 

[coprtoppe]

Mine is an early 18" PTR model (standard?) that replaced an earlier JLD model with trunnion issues.

I like the Ghillie MSG clone buffer (have an actual HK MSG buffer and the Ghillie seems better, but the HK one could be quite well used).
Find it here when its in stock which doesnt seem very often:
HK Heavy Buffer by Parabellum Combat Systems, HK Recoil Reducing Heavy Buffer for HK91 G3 PTR91 HK93, RTG Gun Parts
maybe try Jeff (Ghillie) himself. User name ghilliebear2000 here on HKPro.
*** be aware that this buffer wont fit ALL stocks but fits many

That buffer combined with this butt pad:
HK21E Buttpad US Made - HKPARTS.NET
is a fantastic combo that will go a long way to bringing that felt recoil down.
*** early PTR butt stocks did not have removable butt pads but I have heard current ones do - but these will fit factory HK (surplus) stocks.

Just today ordered a couple of the Bill Springfield modified buffers so will give them a go soon.

I prefer a flash hider, so have not messed with the comps much yet. want to try a PWS sometime.

Tony

 

[jdonovan]

Recoil: I am not really a wimp, but I was initially hoping my next rifle would be hurting my shoulder less than my saiga 12 and Garand, if you can give an estimate for how much recoil to expect, as well as possible methods to reduce it if needbe (muzzle breaks, springs etc).

If the saiga and Garand are too much for you, then I don't think the G3 in any form is going to be a huge step down in recoil energy. If you truly find the saiga/Garand objectionable I would try a .308 gun before you buy it...

Trigger:Most of my research tells me the trigger is nothing special, and could really use some work, and that Bill Springfield is the man to do it. If you have any reviews and/or opinions on this, I would love to hear a bit more about his turnaround time, quality, and need of the actual trigger work. (For example, my saiga 12 NEEDS to be converted for full enjoyment imo)

It does not NEED to be fixed. I can routinely hold 1-1.5 MOA out of my JLD gun with quality ammo, and the original trigger. The MSG is not a 1/4 MOA match gun, and probably never will be. Set your expectations reasonably and you wont be disappointed.

Milsurp: I emailed PTR about it and got a very fast response:

Ok, just about you ask about fixing the trigger, and then ask about running mil-surplus. What do you want a precision target rifle, or a battle rifle. Its hard to be both.

Fun: Last but probably most important, if there are any owners who read this, how much do you like to shoot your rifle, as this is probably the most important buying point for me in terms of a rifle for rec shooting.

If you don't like the recoil of the saiga, and Garand, I'm willing to guess that you aren't going to like the G3 family... its not that the G3 is bad, but in my experience the Garand, and the saiga are not known as super-hard recoiling firearms.

That said, _I_ like my G3 clones, and have fun shooting them.

 

[HKsocom]

With the msg-91 you have the magpul stock on it so if you want to use the heavy buffers you have to modify the stock. The bill springfield buffer is the better way to go with this stock. No modification and you don't have to void the warranty on your stock. If recoil is preventing you from enjoying your other guns you could always buy a past recoil pad and it wont bother you anymore I tried one when i was shooting BAR in 338 win mag and you didn't know you were shooting a mag.

 

[Niff]

On my cell so I am not going to bother with formatting/quotes, but to elaborate it is not that the saiga or garand is too much, just that sometimes I would want to shoot something with a bit less kick.

As for the comment on surplus,I want an accurate rifle with the capacity to shoot cheap ammo "for fun" and shoot match grade for accuracy.

As for the stock, thanks for the info, I'll be sure to take note if I want to go that route.

 

[jdonovan]

just that sometimes I would want to shoot something with a bit less kick.

Then the G3 isn't that rifle. It will kick a bit less than those other ones, but its not going to be a huge difference.

As for the comment on surplus,I want an accurate rifle with the capacity to shoot cheap ammo "for fun" and shoot match grade for accuracy.

Much of the surplus 308 that has been available is/was tar sealed. To get the gun to cycle with tared ammo, it needed a looser spec chamber, a loose chamber generally isn't complatibly with high accuracy.... but that depends on what you call accuracy. You say 'match grade'. The matches I run, that means 0.25 moa is about as large as you can possibly be, and .1 is desirable.

If you avoid the tar sealed, most of it will run fine in any of the PTR guns.

As for the stock, thanks for the info, I'll be sure to take note if I want to go that route.

I also run the PRS stock and it made a big difference in getting the gun into a better 'fit' for me.

 

[Niff]

" If you avoid the tar sealed, most of it will run fine in any of the PTR guns."

Ok, good to know.

Also: prs stock?

 

[jdonovan]

Also: prs stock?

magpul PRS.

PRS 2 Precision Rifle Adjustable Buttstock HK 91 G3 Synthetic Black

 

[Niff]

Ahhhhh, it's just on ptr's site as a magpul adjustable stock.


Thanks for all your responses guys.

 

[The_Great_308]

I have a PRS2 stock on one of my HK clones that I modified to use the heavy HK 2 stage buffer I will post the link to the mods below.

Link to PRS2 review:
MAG-PUL PRS2 HK Adjustable Stock

Link to Heavy buffer installation:
Magpul PRS2/ Heavy HK Buffer Install

Bill Springfield does a very nice standard trigger job but IMO if you are looking for the most accurate after market trigger job you should check out William's trigger specialties. I have 2 WTS set triggers and they are very sweet!! They have approx 4 to 4.5 lbs of pull on semi-auto and 2 to 2.5 lbs of pull on set trigger. This is a lighter pull than a PSG1 trigger. I have had a total of five HK trigger jobs by Williams and all are amazing.

Sets

 

[OLD HOCKLER]

For my ptr 91, the buffer from Ghillie and a pws brake has made a world of difference in felt recoil. Some say the pws brake only helps with full auto. My son and I both now find the a3 collapsible is no longer a so called meat grinder with the pws brake so I know it helps even with the Ghillie buffer. Get your gorilla arm ready. The pws brake takes a lot of muscle to time it. As for trigger pull, some very light polishing and lots of hand cycling of the trigger pack internals smoothed it up a lot. After market trigger mods have never appealed to me. Even in my ar I like to keep them as original as I can. Maybe I'm just old fashioned or stubborn that way. Thats how they were made to work. The ptr trigger packs have replaced the roller spring for full auto with a spring with no roller. That has helped smooth the pull out a little too. If you can find any Portuguese surplus its about as good as you can get as far as ammo goes. Have fun and I hope she shoots tight for you!!

 

[Niff]

Get your gorilla arm ready. The pws brake takes a lot of muscle to time it.

Could you elaborate on what you mean?

Also:I know that later revisions of the g3 are apparently classified as a free floating barrel, but is it really free floating? The explanation I found seemed a bit ambiguous, and saying that some models are not etc, so just curious.

 

[OLD HOCKLER]

For the pws brake to time with their logo on top and bottom out the threads you have to have the upper in a padded vise and really turn hard with a good wrench. I had to put mine on the floor and have my son stand on it. Then I finished the 1/2 turn I needed to get the logo up at 12 o'clock. It was worth it. Yes I had to call pws about it, they said its normal. The brake really works and is well made. No lock tight or set screw needed. Never had that much problem with brakes on ar's or ak's. The pws brakes just really go on tight. Yes the barrels are free float. Put a ptr 91 between your knees with the hand guard off. Try to squeeze the barrel and cocking tube together. you should see a small amount of movement between the cocking tube and the triple frame. When I accidentally did with a hk 91 while cleaning I had thought a weld was loose or I had broke something till I asked a rep about it and he showed me once. Yes some will argue about this, but that small amount of play convinced me. You can see this also with the hand guard on, its just not as pronounced. Nope this makes sense, John

 

[Niff]

Ah, I see what you mean now, thanks. I am used to things like that, I have a polychoke for my saiga that once you tighten it to the most closed setting, pretty much need a vice to get it loose again.

Well, ill probably be calling my local ffl dealer tomorrow and ordering it, then checking with bill to see what his leadtime might be if I get the gun and hate the trigger.

thanks all, and ill be sure to post something when I got it all figured out.

-Niff

 

[The_Great_308]

Also:I know that later revisions of the g3 are apparently classified as a free floating barrel, but is it really free floating? The explanation I found seemed a bit ambiguous, and saying that some models are not etc, so just curious.

Since the cocking tube free floats in the triple frame it is sort of free floated but not truly. This is because the triple tree is attached to the barrel which will affect barrel harmonics, also if enough presure is put on the cocking tube it will touch the triple frame. This could occur during cocking or when shooting off the bipod. Also I have seen several photos of HK91s that had crooked cocking tubes that touched the triple frame from being pulled to the side repeatedly when cocking.

The HK PSG1 and HK MSG90 have truly free floated barrels. The barrel makes contact at the trunnion and that is it no other part of the rifle touches the barrel to affect harmonics. There is no triple frame, the cocking tube is welded to the receiver.

 

[The_Great_308]

Here is a link to Bill Springfield's modification for the standard HK buffer:

Bill Springfield - www.TriggerWork.net

I have not tried one of these yet but several others on here have it and have given it very good reviews. The nice thing about this option is that it does not require any mods to your stock. I am planing to get one for my wood stock eventually.