HKPRO Forums banner
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello...

I've found someone local selling an unused, unfired KE date-coded USP9F. Serial number is the low xxxx's. The gun has a traditionally-rifled barrel (not polygonal), so I'm assuming it was produced in VERY early 1994 and therefore is the first run/model of the USP. Two questions...

1) What all came with the early date-coded USPs? This pistol comes with the gray case, manual, and brown info sheet (don't know what to call it). It doesn't include a lock, lockout key, or spent round casing. Is this normal?

2) Since it does appear to be a first gen USP, what changes can I expect to see compared to an AK-coded USP? Are any of these differences worth remedying/fixing?

He's selling it for $625 flat, whereas the cheapest I can get a new AK (2009) USP is ~$800-850, give or take. Should I go for it? Or pass it up?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
Buy that gun right away! I've heard by others on this forum the spent casing deal wasnt around in the first years of production. That gun is just as good as the USP's made current today, you won't be disapointed and it may also have some collectors value to it if it is unfired.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
That gun is just as good as the USP's made current today, you won't be disapointed and it may also have some collectors value to it if it is unfired.

That is simply UNTRUE and inaccurate.

There have been numerous advancements in the USP series pistols since their inception. Just some of the changes in the guns 16 year history are:

-Changed to Polyganal rifling.
-Changed trigger transfer bar to improve reliability in cold weather and dirty environments.
-Changed recoil spring guide rod assembly to a "captured spring".
-Changed trigger mechanism from 1 piece to a 2 piece catch. Improved drop protection, eliminate hammer over travel and reduce manufacturing cost.
-Added a locking feature to the hammer strut support.
-Beefed up firing pin due to breakage from excessive dry firing.
-Redesigned the hammer stop.

There are more advancements than listed.


I don't think there is much collect ability in that pistol and it's not worth $625, IMO. You can find a much newer model with the improved features for what he wants for that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
That is simply UNTRUE and inaccurate.

There have been numerous advancements in the USP series pistols since their inception. Just some of the changes in the guns 16 year history are:

-Changed to Polyganal rifling.
-Changed trigger transfer bar to improve reliability in cold weather and dirty environments.
-Changed recoil spring guide rod assembly to a "captured spring".
-Changed trigger mechanism from 1 piece to a 2 piece catch. Improved drop protection, eliminate hammer over travel and reduce manufacturing cost.
-Added a locking feature to the hammer strut support.
-Beefed up firing pin due to breakage from excessive dry firing.
-Redesigned the hammer stop.

There are more advancements than listed.


I don't think there is much collect ability in that pistol and it's not worth $625, IMO. You can find a much newer model with the improved features for what he wants for that.
Updates yes there are but the original USP is just as reliable and accurate. If you ask anyone that has an older model I'm sure they would tell you the same thing.. lol
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
Updates yes there are but the original USP is just as reliable and accurate. Coming from someone that doesn't own any HK's you sure are quick to jump down someones throat.. lol

You can't be serious, on both counts.

Do you think HK made these improvements for fun. No, it was to increase not only accuracy and reliability but safety as well.

I'm the one that should be LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
Oh I am. Since you're the expert tell me how those updates you mentioned increased reliability other than the trigger bar update for "cold weather". And it's a well known fact that conventional barrels are more accurate but don't have the longevity the polygonal barrels have.

P.S. Not only did they beef up the firing pin but it's a self cleaning pin..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
Oh I am. Since you're the expert tell me how those updates you mentioned increased reliability other than the trigger bar update for "cold weather". And it's a well known fact that conventional barrels are more accurate but don't have the longevity the polygonal barrels have.

P.S. Not only did they beef up the firing pin but it's a self cleaning pin..

OK you asked for it.

Reliability Changes:

-Reduced slide weight by 1.1oz. Improved reliability with training rounds and made gun easier to carry. 94-95
-Changed trigger transfer bar. To improve reliability in cold weather and dirty envoirments. 94-95
-Changed trigger mechanism from 1 piece to a 2 piece catch. Improved drop protection, eliminate hammer over travel and reduce manufacturing cost. 95
-Changed recoil spring guide rod assembly to a "captured spring". Reason unknown to me. 94-95
-Changed shape of disconnect. To reduce chance of breakage. 95-96
-Changed size of mag release to the current smaller version. To prevent inadvertent mag releases. Date Unknown
-Changed angle on slide lock. Customers didn't want the slide to close when mag was inserted. 95-96
-Firing Pin beefed up. After reports of breakage after extensive firing without snap-caps. 00-03 Self cleaning, NO.
-Polygonal Rifling. Adds service life and accuracy.


Safety Changes:

-Add rubber spur to hammer. Required to pass some institutes drop test. 95-96
-Added locking feature to hammer strut support. In an attempt to pacify saftey jerks. 00
-Redesign of hammer stop. Older stlye hits the hammer face while the newer falls into a machined slot above the hammer pivot pin. 04

Not once did I claim to be an expert. Someone asked a question, which you answered incorrectly, and I called you on it. That's all, no need to be salty.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
I knew of the updates, you just don't get what I meant when I said "It's just as good" let me clear it up. It's an HK it's going to go bang everytime the gun has 0 rounds through it I think $625 is a damn good deal and is worth getting despite the updates on newer versions. I don't know how polygonal rifling would add accuracy, if you got this off an HK website they are known not to be 100% accurate with all their info, just sayin.. And no ones salty here and no one called anybody out.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
I knew of the updates, you just don't get what I meant when I said "It's just as good" let me clear it up. It's an HK it's going to go bang everytime the gun has 0 rounds through it I think $625 is a damn good deal and is worth getting despite the updates on newer versions. I don't know how polygonal rifling would add accuracy, if you got this off an HK website they are known not to be 100% accurate with all their info, just sayin.. And know ones salty here and no one called anybody out.

FYI, Scroll down to Advantages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling

It's nice that it's unfired, but HK would unquestionably change most of those parts out if the gun was sent back for any reason. And with good reason, it's not "just as good"... as you put it. That's what I'm saying.


The OP has more than enough info to make an informed decision and there is no need for me to go further, so I'm going to bow out with this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
I got lazy with my words and should have been more specific.. And after hearing multiple respected members on this forum stating that conventional rifling isn't any less accurate than polygonal rifing and seeing the opposite on wiki is somewhat surprising. I agree with you on the note that we should let this go... have a good one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Well dont worry like most on here will tell you, about the test spent shell, I Bought my USP brand new in 96 and it came with what you said, except the brown info
sheet, im guessing its a warranty card, which mine came with, but i thought mine was white.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,987 Posts
It's sort of a Tan color, at least mine was. I have owned a KD (1993, this is the first year of production) USP. If somebody showed me an unfired, perfect condition KE-coded USP for $625, and I had the cash, I'd take it in a heartbeat. My KD was 100% reliable with a large variety of ammo. I doubt one single person on this board could tell the difference in accuracy between a poly and traditionally-rifled USP barrel. Also I doubt you'll find the warning about not shooting lead ammo in the manual for that early USP. Also, HK-USA can install most of those newer parts for you and since you have the the blank warranty card, if you fill it out and send it in, you are technically the original owner and warranty holder. Any updates involving reliability (trigger bar, firing pin, any springs) will probably be done for free. I had a Match trigger installed in mine by HK, at a cost of about $200, but that was more than a few years ago, but I'm relatively certain it would still be an option. The captured recoil assembly is purely for speeding re-assembly and in no way effects function. Personally, I prefer it this way as it makes cleaning the assembly easier. Who wants a lock-out device? That was added because of legal BS.

Also, per the Wikipedia Article on poly-rifling. While in general, I find Wikipedia to be a fairly accurate repository of information, it is always important to check the source. From the Wikipedia Article:

"Providing a better gas seal around the projectile as polygonal bores tend to have a slightly smaller bore area, which translates into more efficient use of the combustion gases trapped behind the bullet,[3] slightly greater (consistency in) muzzle velocities and slightly increased accuracy.[4]"

The source denoted as [4] is: http://atlantisarms.com/History/Barrel History.htm (I suggest you read this, I found it very interesting)

1. From the source article, under the heading "HAMMER FORGING.":

"Hammered barrels have never achieved much favour in target shooting. Whilst their proponents laud the virtues of the mirror finish of the bore and its work hardened surface, which gives long life, the barrels tend to be very variable in the uniformity of their dimensions down their length. Also, because the metal is worked completely throughout the barrel there are considerable radial stresses induced which are difficult to remove completely by the usual stress relieving methods. Stainless steels tend to work harden to a much higher degree than Chrome Molybdenum steels and so do not remain malleable enough to hammer forge. Because of this, it is difficult to make stainless barrels this way. Stainless barrels are being hammer forged, but using type 410 steel which has a lower chrome content than the regular 416 steel usually used for making barrels by other methods."


2. From the source article, under the heading "WHAT MAKES A BARREL ACCURATE.":

"There have been many claims over the years that different forms of rifling profile will give better results. But so far, there is no conclusive proof that the so called concentric form almost universally used these days is any worse than any other - or any better!"


3. From the source article, under the heading "WHICH METHOD MAKES THE BEST RIFLE BARRELS?"

"I believe that you are more likely to get a top of the line tack driver by cut rifling a barrel than by any other method. Bench rest shooters in the States are rediscovering the cut rifled barrel and there may well be a revolution when cut rifled barrel makers, who have been quietly persisting over the years with this demanding technique, find shooters at the very highest levels of accuracy banging on the doors of their barrel shops."


Polygonal rifling is a process which makes accurate, extremely hard, long-lasting barrels, however, I see nothing that suggests that they are more accurate than a traditional cut-rifled barrel. After reviewing the source article I find the assertion of "slightly increased accuracy" in the second bullet point under "Advantages" in the Wikipedia article titled "Polygonal rifling" to be inaccurate or misleading at best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
341 Posts
Hello...

I've found someone local selling an unused, unfired KE date-coded USP9F. Serial number is the low xxxx's. The gun has a traditionally-rifled barrel (not polygonal), so I'm assuming it was produced in VERY early 1994 and therefore is the first run/model of the USP. Two questions...

1) What all came with the early date-coded USPs? This pistol comes with the gray case, manual, and brown info sheet (don't know what to call it). It doesn't include a lock, lockout key, or spent round casing. Is this normal?

2) Since it does appear to be a first gen USP, what changes can I expect to see compared to an AK-coded USP? Are any of these differences worth remedying/fixing?

He's selling it for $625 flat, whereas the cheapest I can get a new AK (2009) USP is ~$800-850, give or take. Should I go for it? Or pass it up?
Just my opinion, Negotiate a better price. All guns are test fired so it really can't be unfired, but it can be unfired by the original owner. If he is firm on the price and this is your first HK, and you are going to shoot it, then buy a used AA through AK series for in and about the $600 range and enjoy.

For what it is worth, I bought a KE USP 9mm last year for $400 from a LGS. It was mint, No history to speak off because it was at a gun shop but the tale tell signs show that it was shot very little - Magazines were clean and the followers did not have any load and unload marks and the barrel hood finish had very miner wear marks on it. I don't shoot this one because of how great the condition is that but I am intrigued how the USP has evolved from the 16 + years ago. Others have posted the internal differences but the cosmetic differences is also different. It seams more shinier then the later models and the engravings are silver in color as opposed to all black. It just sits in the safe keeping all my other HK's company...

Just my two cents.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
It's sort of a Tan color, at least mine was. I have owned a KD (1993, this is the first year of production) USP. If somebody showed me an unfired, perfect condition KE-coded USP for $625, and I had the cash, I'd take it in a heartbeat. My KD was 100% reliable with a large variety of ammo. I doubt one single person on this board could tell the difference in accuracy between a poly and traditionally-rifled USP barrel. Also I doubt you'll find the warning about not shooting lead ammo in the manual for that early USP. Also, HK-USA can install most of those newer parts for you and since you have the the blank warranty card, if you fill it out and send it in, you are technically the original owner and warranty holder. Any updates involving reliability (trigger bar, firing pin, any springs) will probably be done for free. I had a Match trigger installed in mine by HK, at a cost of about $200, but that was more than a few years ago, but I'm relatively certain it would still be an option. The captured recoil assembly is purely for speeding re-assembly and in no way effects function. Personally, I prefer it this way as it makes cleaning the assembly easier. Who wants a lock-out device? That was added because of legal BS.

Also, per the Wikipedia Article on poly-rifling. While in general, I find Wikipedia to be a fairly accurate repository of information, it is always important to check the source. From the Wikipedia Article:

"Providing a better gas seal around the projectile as polygonal bores tend to have a slightly smaller bore area, which translates into more efficient use of the combustion gases trapped behind the bullet,[3] slightly greater (consistency in) muzzle velocities and slightly increased accuracy.[4]"

The source denoted as [4] is: http://atlantisarms.com/History/Barrel History.htm (I suggest you read this, I found it very interesting)

1. From the source article, under the heading "HAMMER FORGING.":

"Hammered barrels have never achieved much favour in target shooting. Whilst their proponents laud the virtues of the mirror finish of the bore and its work hardened surface, which gives long life, the barrels tend to be very variable in the uniformity of their dimensions down their length. Also, because the metal is worked completely throughout the barrel there are considerable radial stresses induced which are difficult to remove completely by the usual stress relieving methods. Stainless steels tend to work harden to a much higher degree than Chrome Molybdenum steels and so do not remain malleable enough to hammer forge. Because of this, it is difficult to make stainless barrels this way. Stainless barrels are being hammer forged, but using type 410 steel which has a lower chrome content than the regular 416 steel usually used for making barrels by other methods."


2. From the source article, under the heading "WHAT MAKES A BARREL ACCURATE.":

"There have been many claims over the years that different forms of rifling profile will give better results. But so far, there is no conclusive proof that the so called concentric form almost universally used these days is any worse than any other - or any better!"


3. From the source article, under the heading "WHICH METHOD MAKES THE BEST RIFLE BARRELS?"

"I believe that you are more likely to get a top of the line tack driver by cut rifling a barrel than by any other method. Bench rest shooters in the States are rediscovering the cut rifled barrel and there may well be a revolution when cut rifled barrel makers, who have been quietly persisting over the years with this demanding technique, find shooters at the very highest levels of accuracy banging on the doors of their barrel shops."


Polygonal rifling is a process which makes accurate, extremely hard, long-lasting barrels, however, I see nothing that suggests that they are more accurate than a traditional cut-rifled barrel. After reviewing the source article I find the assertion of "slightly increased accuracy" in the second bullet point under "Advantages" in the Wikipedia article titled "Polygonal rifling" to be inaccurate or misleading at best.
+1 damn you gotta a way with words! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,702 Posts
Like Casey said, you can find a newer USP with most of those updates for the same
price. (No such thing as Gen's in the USP line) Just good ole' fashioned updates
as time went on, and improvements could be made, were made

I bought a AE date USP full size .40sw with 159 rounds on it for $650, the
pistol looked almost new.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,647 Posts
Too much for a first year gun. I had a first year in 40 and 9 and sold them both. Used the money toward stainless guns. Some people argue that you can incorporate all of the improvements into a first year gun. As far as I'm concerned, if you were going to spend more money to incorporate updated parts, you would be better off buying a newer (slightly used) USP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,987 Posts
I'd call HK to be sure, before hand, but I'd be willing to bet that most if not all of the updates would be done by HK-USA for free, under warranty.

And the the USP came out in 1993, which is KD. KE would be the second year, not that it matters that much, just want to be accurate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,647 Posts
:cool: Depends on what first year means, we talking calendar year, or first year, as in 12 months?

I'd call HK to be sure, before hand, but I'd be willing to bet that most if not all of the updates would be done by HK-USA for free, under warranty.

And the the USP came out in 1993, which is KD. KE would be the second year, not that it matters that much, just want to be accurate.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top