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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Was recently thinking of getting a USC and converting it to a UMP.

I know that Full auto weapons you must be at least 21 years of age, Is it the same for SBR's? If so I may as well put it off until next year.
 

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So there are two separate questions of ownership/purchase here, and in my opinion Age isn't the biggest problem that most people have.

To buy/create an SBR you have to submit a Form 4 to the ATF, which requires a local law enforcement official (usually your sheriff or chief of police) to sign off on it. Obviously you'll have to pass a background check and have no significant criminal record. The form also includes a $200 tax paid to the ATF. You may live in a state that doesn't allow any SBR weapons, or you may live in a city/county where the local police have a policy of not signing Form 4's.

For full-auto weapons, the biggest problem is cost. The only full-auto weapons that you as a regular person can own are those manufactured before May of 1986. Look in the classifieds section, you'll see that just the pre-86 full-auto trigger packs (a somewhat generic part that you can move between some guns) usually sell in the $12.5K+ range.

My suggestion to you would be to get the USC, send it away to one of the conversion vendors (I suggest HDPS), have it converted as a non-SBR using the trigger, mag follower and mag baseplate as compliance parts, and see how you like it. The barrel is easily swapped in the USC/UMP so if you wanted to SBR it later (i.e. after you turn 21 and meet people who can sign a Form 4), jump through the Form 4 hoops, buy the short barrel and just swap the barrel yourself.
 

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Pandora's Box

You better duck Reoze... This forum is chalk full of NFA experts and they are headed your way. Wait untill you find about the the three inch tall neon lettering you have to etch into your receiver as "manufacturer" of an NFA weapon...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I've studied the actual process rather extensively it's just that very few people touch on the age aspect of it.. Personally I cannot stand the look of the USC with a 16 inch barrel and would probably rather just start stocking the parts needed for the conversion.

Thanks for the confirmation about the age requirement though.
 

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I've studied the actual process rather extensively it's just that very few people touch on the age aspect of it.. Personally I cannot stand the look of the USC with a 16 inch barrel and would probably rather just start stocking the parts needed for the conversion.

Thanks for the confirmation about the age requirement though.
Also - don't worry if you can't get the CLEO to sign off on your form 4. As long as you live in a state that allows SBRs, you can still get one even if your local law enforcement official won't sign for it - you do it as a corporate transfer. It can be to a trust, LLC, or corporation. It just costs an additional several hundred $$$ to start one of the above entities, but then you don't need a sign off, no fingerprints, and no photos. That's how I had to get my sear.
 

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More info...

It can be to a trust, LLC, or corporation. It just costs an additional several hundred $$$ to start one of the above entities, but then you don't need a sign off, no fingerprints, and no photos. That's how I had to get my sear.
AviatorDave:
Please elaborate, sounds interesting....
 

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AviatorDave:
Please elaborate, sounds interesting....
Here's a link that goes into more detail.

http://www.machinegunbroker.com/overview.html

I already had a corporation setup (cost $300 to set up, I split it with one other guy) so I didn't even bother to let some LEO tell me "no, I won't sign it."

I may try to get one signed in the future. It would seem like once you already have some, they may be more apt to sign additional ones. Kind of like a 3 or 10 day "waiting period" for handguns. Once you already have 2 or 3, why do they still make you wait several days for another one? But I digress...
http://www.politesocietyinc.com/silencers/faq/faq_ownership.html
 

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+1 aviator dave. i'm in the process of incorporating in a friendly state, having my guns sbr'ed and then held there in storage until i can get them or use them.

however, if you do incorporate you lose the 5th ammendment, this is what my legal advice has been. so get a lawyer. a good starting point is Legalzoom.com and then find a lawyer from there.

hope this helps....

you may want to contact Ed at HDPS or Jeff at Tactical Excellence for more info and advice. I am having Jeff do mine next year hopefully.

I think this is one of the coolest things you can do to the USC, but I hope you can afford college. You shouldn't spend 3k on a gun if you can't afford to pay for school.
 

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How about another SBR question?? Is it better to make your own SBR or have one transferred to you?? Or does it even make a difference?? I would like to have a MP5-ish gun (a clone for cost reasons and the fact I actually would like to shoot it). So would it be better to buy a clone and have it re-barreled (or get a receiver and parts and have it built up from scratch) or buy one already done?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Wow, I would have never thought that would work, But I guess since all the laws in this country relate to the sale of firearms it doesn't surprise the least bit.

Thanks for the information

Edit - One other question, Can I legally have a Suppressor sent directly to me, as it is not a firearm? If not that would limit it to local sales much like a handgun.
 

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As I am preparing to SBR my mp5 clone I found out that some maybe most clones barrels are pressed into the receiver so replace the barrel means heavy duty work, I was quoted a price of $50 for a gunsmith to chop the barrel. Seems to me if you dont have the money for a real MP5 you probably would go the cheap route and have it chopped. Also a transfer of a SBR would cost $200 tax stamp in state to your dealer and $200 tax stamp to you, if you buy a long barrel and "manufacture" it yourself by chopping the barrel I believe its only a one time $200 tax stamp.

Also I believe suppressors have to go through FFL dealers as well because they are NFA, but not positive on this one.

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS SUCH
 

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BE CLEAR ON THIS POINT....silencers are legally firearms.
they can be transfered to you direct w/o going through
a Class 2 or 3 if seller/buyer are both private parties and
meet legal qualifications of firearm/silencer ownership AND
live within the same state. once you go interstate, C2/C3
is required ....as well as potentially added transfer fees.
 

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So I definitely could NOT have one shipped to me out of state?
Not directly to you from out of state, no. It would have to be shipped to your favorite NFA FFL, who would then transfer it to you.

But you could probably find an FFL that is also a dealer of them nearby, and could just buy from their stock.
 

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The ATF/NFA Handbook

Here is the link to the NFA Handbook. This was published to the Internet in June 2007 by Dan Shea (Machine Gun Dealers Bible, Small Arms Review, Long Mountain Outfitters etc) and other NFA experts put together in conjunction with the ATF. This is a PDF that is 195 pages long and the answer is in there somewhere.

http://www.nfatca.org/
 

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As I am preparing to SBR my mp5 clone I found out that some maybe most clones barrels are pressed into the receiver so replace the barrel means heavy duty work, I was quoted a price of $50 for a gunsmith to chop the barrel. Seems to me if you dont have the money for a real MP5 you probably would go the cheap route and have it chopped. Also a transfer of a SBR would cost $200 tax stamp in state to your dealer and $200 tax stamp to you, if you buy a long barrel and "manufacture" it yourself by chopping the barrel I believe its only a one time $200 tax stamp.

Also I believe suppressors have to go through FFL dealers as well because they are NFA, but not positive on this one.

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS SUCH
Replacing an MP5 barrel? Oh yeah, pinned and pressed. To remove them, you first have to drive out the cross-pin that goes through the trunnion. Then press them out from the inside. It supposedly takes a 10 or 12 ton press to get them out, which are actually fairly inexpensive.

Then to go back in, you index it 30 degrees and press it back in. Then drill a new cross-hole and hammer the pin back in place. Easy-peasy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Not directly to you from out of state, no. It would have to be shipped to your favorite NFA FFL, who would then transfer it to you.

But you could probably find an FFL that is also a dealer of them nearby, and could just buy from their stock.
But wouldn't that then void the answer to the original topic that you can buy NFA items as long as they are private sales?

Unless they don't work the same way as handguns, My dealer told me even if I were to buy privately and shipped to the FFL he would not be allowed to hand it to me, He's not even allowed to hand me a gun to look at, at least thats what he was under the impression of.

Also a transfer of a SBR would cost $200 tax stamp in state to your dealer and $200 tax stamp to you
Should not be the case if it's shipped to a class 3 dealer who can own NFA weapons without a tax stamp.
 

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Age 21 Requirement

All,
I definitely missed something in this thread. Are my form 1's and 4's the only ones that have the the age question (7d)? I was not aware that by providing details on a separate sheet of paper I could get "around" this issue. The age thing seemed like a no-brainer. Probably because for me it became a non-issue over 25 years ago.

As for the sbr issue. A good way to proceed is to have a smith rebarrel your firearm with the short barrel and a permanently atttached can or suppressor. When your form 1 is approved, you remove that barrel extension, whatever it might be. Make sure it can be done without ruining threads etc.
Also, for all the guys that are into the minute details of sbrs and particularly the marking issue. No one ever brings up the fact that when the individual sends his title 1 gun off to be sbr'ed by one of our respected smiths; what is actually happening is that the smith is manufacturing a title II weapon and you the owner are actually having it transferred from him which is not what you said you were going to do when you filled out the form 1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the form 1 says that the individual is making the firearm. It doesn't state anywhere that you are sending it off to ******* who are known for fantastic work converting HK94's to MP5's and who probably should be registering that weapon as they make it on a form 2 , and then transfer it to you on a form 3 or 4 etc.
The process I followed kind of came about by accident because of other happenings but I sent a title 1 gun out and it came back as a title 1 (with Mp5 barrel and fake can). Later on, my form 1 was approved and the gunsmith in me came out.
Just a little Saturday morning brainstorming.
Hey Raymond, was that letter addressed to you? A lot of posts for an 18 year old to have. :)
 

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hey, V. back on the mainland now?

no, that letter was addressed to some guy who asked Tech Branch why he had
to be 21 when rifles were granted to those 18+...and that he didn't see anything
codified in law that one needed to be 21.

i was intrigued so posted the link here.....and not as a "Hey guys! you can now
get Title 2s if you're 18 and older"

you are very correct on the technicalities of the bbl work. the smith performing
the change to short bbl did so illegally if they were not a C2. here's another
fine point, however: it is possible for you to send your firearm out for service
and it needn't be transfered to the smith....but some folks Form 5 it anyhoo,
just to cover their rear.

there are other fine points...i'll PM you. running for work. (you/I are about the
same age, I gather)
 
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