[Darebear]

I know this was discussed before a long time ago but I was just wondering something. What exactly is the difference between a SA trigger (DA/SA HK's) and the LEM trigger? Is a shorter reset the only benefit that the SA trigger has over the LEM?

 

[williamthewolf]

Check this video and thread out originally posted by Carrera--

I can't really explain the LEM first hand, as I've never shot one. Bear in mind there is regular LEM, and then a light LEM.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/150401-lem-explained-finally.html

 

[Apollo11]

Obviously, the LEM has the long stroke/"two stage" trigger feel to it and the SA has the "take up" already out of it and feels like the last part of the LEM pull. That being said; for me the only time the LEM is noticed is on the first pull, after a reload, and after movement (running/moving around the COF with my finger off the trigger). The rest of the time the shooting is done from the reset. The reset varies between LEM triggers. My 45's in LEM are super short compared to the P30 LEM.

 

[Darebear]

Obviously, the LEM has the long stroke/"two stage" trigger feel to it and the SA has the "take up" already out of it and feels like the last part of the LEM pull. That being said; for me the only time the LEM is noticed is on the first pull, after a reload, and after movement (running/moving around the COF with my finger off the trigger). The rest of the time the shooting is done from the reset. The reset varies between LEM triggers. My 45's in LEM are super short compared to the P30 LEM.

This is the answer I'm looking for. So all the SA trigger pulls in HK's are the equivalent to their LEM counterparts? Hmm I'm always going back and forth on this. I really want to keep this DA/SA but this is the grittiest trigger I've had by far. What contributes to the way the trigger feels? Is it the hammer spring? I assume this because the LEM replaces the hammer spring and I've seen threads (and also previously asked) about Wolff Springs.

 

[Defaultmp3]

pistol-training.com » HK LEM vs. SIG DAK

 

[Bentonville]

I am a recent convert to LEM. I don't know much except what I have experienced. I had DA/SA on every HK I ever owned from USPs in every caliber and size to the .45 Tactical ( best DA/SA trigger of the HKs I have owned) to the P2000 and P30. SA triggers are fine for me. Just getting to it is the problem. I don't want to carry C&L'd, just my preference. The first pull is always irritating to one degree or another even after lots of practicing with DA. I recently had my HK45c converted to light LEM. It's really the best of the HK triggers to me. YMMV. The reset is not a problem although some people warn that it takes a lot of practice to get used to, I haven't had a problem. The long first pull ( pistol is already cocked but trigger has to travel the full distance from rest to sear release) does not interfere with holding the sights on target. Plus, I don't have to think about decocking to put the gun away. Just release the trigger. The previous posters have already answered the original post but I am excited about my new trigger so I took this opportunity to talk about it. HK Customer service converted my trigger and they were amazingly efficient and professional.

 

[chuck s]

Marketing and obtuse mechanical technicalities aside think of LEM as a SA pistol with a second strike capability.

Compare to the operation of the classic SA pistol, the M1911. In both the movement of the slide fully cocks the hammer. Pulling the trigger releases the hammer, the pistol fires, and the cycle starts all over again. It is only necessary to ease the trigger forward to the sear reset point.

The difference is the amount of "slack" or "first stage" in the trigger. On a finely tuned M1911 this might be no more than 1/16"; on my HK45C it's more like 1/2". The HK LEM system does have a second strike capability, but that doesn't change the basic operation from SA. The trigger does not cock either pistol. In LEM it only moves it into a position to be able to fire. Since the trigger is not compressing the mainspring/hammer spring the trigger weight is very light.

BTW it is helpful to think of the Glock and S&W M&P pistols as SA as well. Marketing and obtuse mechanical technicalities aside.

-- Chuck

 

[bordercop]

Marketing and obtuse mechanical technicalities aside think of LEM as a SA pistol with a second strike capability.

I prefer to think of it as SA with a longer takeup. IMO second strike is a gimmick (falling under the category of marketing). If you struck a bad round the first time, you'll strike a bad round the second time. I have yet to hear someone who said second strike saved their life, or saved them time lost in a competition. I would argue that it costs you more time to try it, instead of just getting a bad round out of the gun. Better to just commit yourself to corrective actions.

The only time I've seen a round fire after failing to detonate from a pin striking it's primer, was from a gun that had a bad pin/spring. Those rounds wouldn't fire from that gun no matter how many times we tried, but did fire in a different gun.

 

[Apollo11]

What contributes to the way the trigger feels? Is it the hammer spring? I assume this because the LEM replaces the hammer spring and I've seen threads (and also previously asked) about Wolff Springs.

My experience has taught me that a lot of things can contribute to the gritty trigger you are experiencing. I did the 2000 round test with my LEM P30LS and the trigger became gritty in the end. This was my fault, as I over lubed the trigger components prior the the start of the test, and the resulting carbon and powder residue stuck to the oil and made it's way into the small parts that you can feel rubbing together.

There can be a lot that causes gritty feeling triggers, and what I think is gritty may be super smooth to you. Usually time will smooth all things out to a point, but if you have burrs or something rubbing something, it can cause that feeling too. After I had the guts pulled out of the P30LS, the trigger is perfect again. I have not seen that replacing springs would help with the trigger feel, only the weight, and I stay away from trying to out think the engineers at HK. The last thing I would say to you is a trigger on a combat firearm will not be as nice as that on a 1911 that has been stoned and polished. I run the P30LS fast enough, and shoot from the reset that even when it was gritty I only noticed it in dry fire and function checking.

 

[chuck s]

Bordercop --

We're in complete agreement, just different ways of expressing it. Slack should come out of the LEM (or M1911 or any) trigger well before the sights align on the target. Merely complete the trigger press when they do. The sear trip point is usually a complete guess with DA or DA/SA pistols.

-- Chuck

 

[Darebear]

Bordercop --

We're in complete agreement, just different ways of expressing it. Slack should come out of the LEM (or M1911 or any) trigger well before the sights align on the target. Merely complete the trigger press when they do. The sear trip point is usually a complete guess with DA or DA/SA pistols.
-- Chuck

Really? Are you referring to when the trigger breaks when you say Sear trip point?

 

[Darebear]

Hey Chuck S. I have another question. How do you train to run both a 1911 with a safety and LEM with HK? Are you just to the point where you imagine wiping the safety off on the HK's you own?

 

[Darebear]

I also wanted to ask yall's opinion on this... I can get good accurate shots on this 10lb trigger 9 times out of 10. I don't know if my finger is getting tired or my whole upper body. When I grip I'm really tight and rigid and it plays hard on my shoulder muscles, but a super firm grip helps me to not move the front sight when squeezing the first DA pull. What do you guys think about this? Sorry for continunally asking LEM questions, I just don't know if it will be more beneficial for me to switch to LEM or keep practicing the DA/SA trigger until I can get it right 10 times out of 10.

 

[TGS]

I also wanted to ask yall's opinion on this... I can get good accurate shots on this 10lb trigger 9 times out of 10. I don't know if my finger is getting tired or my whole upper body. When I grip I'm really tight and rigid and it plays hard on my shoulder muscles, but a super firm grip helps me to not move the front sight when squeezing the first DA pull. What do you guys think about this? Sorry for continunally asking LEM questions, I just don't know if it will be more beneficial for me to switch to LEM or keep practicing the DA/SA trigger until I can get it right 10 times out of 10.

I would think you're gripping too tight unless you're talking about a LOT of repetitions. A typical range session for me will involve 60 single handed rounds (30 DA/30 SA) per hand, and my mental concentration tires in the 2nd set of 30, not my muscles. I consider 9/10 rounds hitting a 2" circle at 5 yards, DA or SA, WHO or SHO, to be sufficient. I've actually been doing better WHO with DA lately than I have SHO.

Gtmtnbiker98 will usually curl his thumb down as much as possible, whereas I've found that sticking my thumb up high at a 45 degree angle (as if it was resting on top of a safed 1911) to help my grip. Play around with small things like that and it should/could help your stability a lot. I know with me, it's night and day between putting my thumb up high or keeping it in it's usual position it would be in with a 2 handed grip. Curling it down ended up killing my grip and stability, and had the opposite effect that gt suggested. Still, if I hadn't asked Gt for advice, I never would have tried that stuff out and had the "aha!" moment, bringing my one-handed shooting to the next level. So, thanks gt. You da'man.

Also, remember the pull should be continuous and smooth, no longer than 1 second. Do not stage the DA trigger pull, and if it takes more than a "one-one thousand" to complete the pull then just stop and start over. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Don't practice bad habits on the notion of working through them.

 

[Darebear]

I would think you're gripping too tight unless you're talking about a LOT of repetitions. A typical range session for me will involve 60 single handed rounds (30 DA/30 SA) per hand, and my mental concentration tires in the 2nd set of 30, not my muscles. I consider 9/10 rounds hitting a 2" circle at 5 yards, DA or SA, WHO or SHO, to be sufficient.

Gtmtnbiker98 will usually curl his thumb down as much as possible, whereas I've found that sticking my thumb up high at a 45 degree angle (as if it was resting on top of a safed 1911) to help my grip. Play around with small things like that and it should could your stability a lot. I know with me, it's night and day between putting my thumb up high or keeping it in it's usual position it would be in with a 2 handed grip.

Also, remember the pull should be continuous and smooth, no longer than 1 second. Do not stage the DA trigger pull, and if it takes more than a "one-one thousand" to complete the pull then just stop and start over. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Don't practice bad habits on the notion of working through them.

Thanks. My first time shooting a DA revovler was quite amazing and I hit everything I aimed at. The fellow who owned the revolver told me to stage the trigger, never heard of that phrase before. Well I did and it worked, fast forward 2 years later and I'm reading a article on Pistoltraining that states what you just said "Do not stage the DA trigger". I don't know why it worked for me on that revolver but everytime I gave stage-ing a try again I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. So I def agree with you. What's really killing me is my lust for a full size 1911. Then I'll have the Glock trigger, HK's DA/SA and a 1911 trigger... Consistency thrown right out of the window.

 

[chuck s]

Different pistols are really not recommended but both the M1911 and LEM function as Single Actions and run the same.

I don't "swipe"* the safety off on a M1911. My shooting hand thumb naturally rests on the top of the lever at all times as part of my grip on the pistol and I instinctively depress it during the draw stroke. Several thousand live fire presentations will ingrain this nicely. Remember I've carries the M1911 all my adult life (and am US Army - retired).

If there's no lever the thumb just falls into place where the lever would be when depressed. My grip just depresses the phantom lever I guess. So far I've experienced no confusion. And I usually know which pistol I'm carrying. No confusion either with my Beretta M92G or M&P9. Neither has a safety but are infrequently carried. They're only 9mm but both have twice the capacity of my .45ACP pistols which is a comfort at 0200 in my pajamas.

Same thing for the trigger slack. It comes out as the pistol moves up to line of sight. With any trigger system.

Something like DA/SA with a safety would really confuse things if you're not used to depressing and holding it down.

-- Chuck

* Swipe infers to me the thumb ends up under the lever rather than remaining on top of it.

 

[chuck s]

Gray Guns (Bruce Gray) among others has made a business out of staging or prepping the DA trigger. They're not unique. Every professional pistol course I've attended has insisted on it -- assuming you want to hit anything with the first DA shot.

The vague sear trip point on most DA/SA pistols (HK included) makes this a difficult task to master without great expense of time and ammunition.

Why bother? There are much better, easier to learn and maintain skills trigger systems available. Glock, M&P, M1911, LEM just to name a few.

-- Chuck

 

[TGS]

Thanks. My first time shooting a DA revovler was quite amazing and I hit everything I aimed at. The fellow who owned the revolver told me to stage the trigger, never heard of that phrase before. Well I did and it worked, fast forward 2 years later and I'm reading a article on Pistoltraining that states what you just said "Do not stage the DA trigger". I don't know why it worked for me on that revolver but everytime I gave stage-ing a try again I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. So I def agree with you. What's really killing me is my lust for a full size 1911. Then I'll have the Glock trigger, HK's DA/SA and a 1911 trigger... Consistency thrown right out of the window.

Great mention of that article. I'll just leave a linky here for anyone interested:
pistol-training.com » Fear Not, The Double Action Shot!

 

[TGS]

Gray Guns (Bruce Gray) among others has made a business out of staging or prepping the DA trigger. They're not unique. Every professional pistol course I've attended has insisted on it -- assuming you want to hit anything with the first DA shot.

The vague sear trip point on most DA/SA pistols (HK included) makes this a difficult task to master without great expense of time and ammunition.

Why bother? There are much better, easier to learn and maintain skills trigger systems available. Glock, M&P, M1911, LEM just to name a few.

-- Chuck

Chuck, you brought up the reason a constant pull is a better option. You can't predict the sear trip point accurately with a DA (don't know where you're getting that SA can't be predicted, it's VERY noticeable).

A rolling trigger pull does not rely on knowing where the sear trip point is. You just pull the trigger straight through until it breaks......can't get any more simple.

The linked article discusses this.

Talk to Ernest Langdon or ToddG, and see what they say. They're the current day masters of TDA pistols. No one has run TDA's like they have, and they pwn noobs with their 1911's and SFA's while doing so. Fear not, the double action trigger. FWIW, Todd Green also uses this trigger pull technique for his LEM and SFA guns. It works.

So far, it's produced much better results for me, and EVERYONE I know who shoots a TDA than has staging the trigger.

 

[LuvmyHK45]

I'm considering a match trigger upgrade for my USP 45 over the LEM. I'm used to carrying DA/SA pistols & would like to keep consistancy. Are the match triggers a good choice if I want to use this as a self defense pistol? I don't want to worry about light strikes with factory ammo. I'm not putting down H&K's at all, but I would like a trigger a little closer to the feel of my Beretta's.

If I may explain for comparison...I have a Beretta 90-Two/.40 that had a factory trigger pull of 11lb DA & 5lb SA. I installed a Beretta D (DAO) spring and have performed a hammer and sear polish. Now, after breaking it in, the DA is 6.5lbs & the SA is a very crisp 3.5lbs and is incredibly smooth throughout the entire pull...and this is a carry pistol with 100% reliability. The pull is still long, but the DA is light and smooth enough that I can carry it with a round in the chamber & hammer down & I can draw and hit bullseye in DA. I had a difficult time keeping steady when it was 11lbs and am even worse with my USP's DA pull. DA feels like it's 13 or 14lbs on the USP while SA's not bad. I'm not expecting a 4 lb pull from my USP, but would like it a lighter than it is now. I really love the size and quality of my USP, but would like to improve the trigger. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks.