[U.S. Praetorian]

I think that this has been addressed before but have any of you read this, especially the part that says "have converted many into sear hosts" Post #9, subheading 3)
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/66557-mp-what/

 

[Jesser]

Yep discussed it, I believe they are adding the sear trip to the carrier with a set screw which does not alter the receiver in anyway and allows a semi carrier to be installed and then attach sear trip. Not sure but it's how I'd try to do it... With the carrier being an unregulated part, I don't see how a law is broken for those with registered packs....

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

I knew certain folks have devised a spring loaded sear trip but the ATF has yet to rule on that AFAIK. Registered packs are not a problem, it is the utilization of a FA carrier and its ability to be inserted in an MKE receiver is what is questionable.

 

[kwesi]

IIRC Ghillie is waiting on a reply from the tech branch on an idea he has.

 

[ghilliebear2000]

IIRC Ghillie is waiting on a reply from the tech branch on an idea he has.

it been almost been a year still no letter..

 

[scottinthegrove]

Apparently "C&S Metall-Werkes" either received a letter and didn't share the details or he thought he'd "ask for forgiveness instead of permission". To me the post below says to me he isn't real big on getting his facts straight. Direct quote from the Saiga-12 forum from "C&S Metall-Werkes":

"Just some cool info on the MP5.

NASA has/had some MP5's and they record every single round that has been fired through them.
When one of their guns hit 750,000rds, they contacted HK about a new bbl. HK told them the bbl was still fine and to get a hold of them at 1,000,000rds.
At 1,000,000 HK traded a new MP5 to NASA for the 1-million rd gun and put it on display. The bbl was still good :smoke:"

As I recall from the Frank James book "Heckler & Koch's MP5 Submachine Gun", the NASA training MP5 had somewhere around 576,000 rds +/- documented rounds through it. The barrel was shot out and there was no bolt gap left with +4 rollers. HK quoted the repair to return the gun to factory spec would be within a few dollars of buying a brand new MP5 to replace it. So NASA bought new.

Apparently to "C&S Metall-Werkes" 750,000 is close enough to 576,000. I understand that they do pretty good work on drums. I certainly wouldn't buy a roller locked SBR from them if they are converting MKE guns without Tech Branch approval. Posts like:

"I think at this point in time the MKE pistol is the way to go. They are not getting bought up by the Class-2's because of the FA-bolt block....once our fix gets around, they will wind up getting scarcer as they will be bought and converted by C-2's to MP5 FA host guns."

Posts like this make me concerned. Your Mileage May Vary.

Tony Dee the armorer at the Gun Store here in Las Vegas showed me a Pre Sample MP5 that had around 2,000,000 rds through it. As I recall he said the trunion had been replaced twice and I think it was on its sixth or seventh factory barrel. With posts like these it makes me wonder the validity of any information I would get from them.

Scott

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

Unfortunately there are people that openly post all kinds of things that they have done which skirt the borders of illegality and I would love to have my MKE's sear capable but until Jeff gets confirmation it's kosher I will wait. Also this guy is one of those clone snobs which I can understand to a certain degree but no matter how shoddy the build is these are stamped steel and welded guns and any one who is handy at welding and metal work can make these guns run. Sorry but they are not $75K custom built Holland & Holland rifles and I always get a kick by folks that act like they are.

 

[chemcmndr]

Apparently "C&S Metall-Werkes" either received a letter and didn't share the details or he thought he'd "ask for forgiveness instead of permission". To me the post below says to me he isn't real big on getting his facts straight. Direct quote from the Saiga-12 forum from "C&S Metall-Werkes":

"Just some cool info on the MP5.

NASA has/had some MP5's and they record every single round that has been fired through them.
When one of their guns hit 750,000rds, they contacted HK about a new bbl. HK told them the bbl was still fine and to get a hold of them at 1,000,000rds.
At 1,000,000 HK traded a new MP5 to NASA for the 1-million rd gun and put it on display. The bbl was still good :smoke:"

As I recall from the Frank James book "Heckler & Koch's MP5 Submachine Gun", the NASA training MP5 had somewhere around 576,000 rds +/- documented rounds through it. The barrel was shot out and there was no bolt gap left with +4 rollers. HK quoted the repair to return the gun to factory spec would be within a few dollars of buying a brand new MP5 to replace it. So NASA bought new.

Apparently to "C&S Metall-Werkes" 750,000 is close enough to 576,000. I understand that they do pretty good work on drums. I certainly wouldn't buy a roller locked SBR from them if they are converting MKE guns without Tech Branch approval. Posts like:

"I think at this point in time the MKE pistol is the way to go. They are not getting bought up by the Class-2's because of the FA-bolt block....once our fix gets around, they will wind up getting scarcer as they will be bought and converted by C-2's to MP5 FA host guns."

Posts like this make me concerned. Your Mileage May Vary.

Tony Dee the armorer at the Gun Store here in Las Vegas showed me a Pre Sample MP5 that had around 2,000,000 rds through it. As I recall he said the trunion had been replaced twice and I think it was on its sixth or seventh factory barrel. With posts like these it makes me wonder the validity of any information I would get from them.

Scott

When I was talking to Ken at C&S about the MKE conversions, I thought I remember him saying something to the effect of them taking out the FA carrier block, but they would install the traditional H&K shelf around the mag well and cover up the drilled holes. Also, I seem to recall talking to the owner of Michael's Machines when he was at the last gun show, and he said that he had a letter from the ATF Tech Branch authorizing him to remove the carrier block and install the traditional H&K shelf.

 

[scottinthegrove]

When I was talking to Ken at C&S about the MKE conversions, I thought I remember him saying something to the effect of them taking out the FA carrier block, but they would install the traditional H&K shelf around the mag well and cover up the drilled holes. Also, I seem to recall talking to the owner of Michael's Machines when he was at the last gun show, and he said that he had a letter from the ATF Tech Branch authorizing him to remove the carrier block and install the traditional H&K shelf.

If you notice on the May 8 post from "C&S Metall-Werkes" from the link above:

"All of these guns are blocked, so they won't accept a full-auto bolt carrier. Removal of the block is a felony. FWIW, we have already figured out a way around this by modifying the FA bolt into a two peice....slides in, then you bolt the FA sear-ramp to the carrier."

My limited understanding of how the Tech Branch views the front push pin hole in a roller locked receiver is that the hole is a machinegun feature separating a full auto receiver from a semi auto with the shelf. As I recall the Tech Branch has issued a rule that when making a paddle mag install, a hole is made on one side and is started into the other side. But the hole on the second side can only be started not through the receiver metal. A variance was given to the MKE guns because they added the full auto carrier block. Whether going around the block by mechanical means is acceptable to the Tech. Branch, I don't know. I have yet to see anything from them concerning this issue.

Maybe Mike has a letter. I have not seen where Mike has advertized that he has MKE guns modified for sear use. Maybe I missed it. I would think that with as many people have written for clarification, The Tech Branch would issue a public ruling on what can or can not be done, but I haven't heard of one. Jeff (ghilliebear2000) wrote the Tech Branch asking to do just exactly what "C&S Metall-Werkes" describes doing to the MKE (please see post above). There are those that ask for permission and those that ask for forgiveness. What is the case in this instance? I don't claim to have a clue. I've related my limited understanding. YMMV.

Scott

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

It would seem logical that applying a shelf and removing the block would be OK and even more so a carrier with a bolt on trip but I don't think a letter will ever be generated allowing this, on purpose. The fact is it is much easier to convert any other clone to FA before making an MKE FA. As is now the MKE's just cannot be made sear capable. Regardless, MM does frequent here and I would like to hear story about this alleged letter.

 

[shootingmonkey]

I seem to be a little confused on this whole block thing. This seems to be the only gun that I constantly read about that modifications to are illegal.

Why would it not be legal to first weld the shelf on, and then once the shelf is on take out the block? Does anyone have a link to where this is illegal?

Saigas are consistantly modified from their imported "sporting purpouse" configuration to having pistol grips, modified trigger groups, and drum mags.

My understanding on the HK style guns is that the semi guns have to have the following features a semi auto shelf, and a semi only modified trigger pack modified to BATFE specs. Now these guns(MKE) have come in with another BATFE approved feature. So how is it wrong to subistute one for the other BATFE approve feature? Even if you modify it to the accecpted standard, it will not run full auto without the proper registered parts.

I am so confused.

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

I am so confused.

.....and that is how they prefer you stay.
The MKE's are manufactured as select fire weapons thusly being made with a front receiver hole. That cannot be done here at all but since they are made this way they had to have a receiver block, a shelf so a FA pack will not fit and a block welded into the triggerpack which will not allow the selector to move to the 3rd position. The MKE trigger packs are also FA packs that have only been cut for a shelf and the selector block installed. Any other FA pack must have the sear pin moved from its original position and on the MKE's it remains in the original position. They also are no longer being imported into the country.
So, all your assessments are correct and it really does not mean jack in the scheme of things but as with all things ATF its a gray area. Just like the 922r rule. They should change their name to NASA. Never A Straight Answer.

 

[Shattered Mind]

They should change their name to NASA. Never A Straight Answer.

I like that...

 

[99HMC4]

I'm still trying to figure out why ecmveryone says it's a felony to remove to inner block. If your sn 02, remove away. Now it's a posti but you've got a decent demo/shop gun. As for civis, is there been any ATF stating NOT to have a removable sear trip on the carrier?

 

[Schlafftablett]

The MKE's are manufactured as select fire weapons thusly being made with a front receiver hole. That cannot be done here at all but since they are made this way they had to have a receiver block, a shelf so a FA pack will not fit and a block welded into the triggerpack which will not allow the selector...Never A Straight Answer.

It is actually legal to manufacture a 90 series firearm using a new PP receiver so long as the hole is covered/filled prior to manufacture being completed. Case in point are the JLD (and perhaps PTR) guns. If you look inside one you'll notice that the flats were stamped with the front PP hole. The receivers were rolled then welded and only then were the holes cut through to add the shelf. "Once a MG, always and MG" only applies if the weapon was once completed as such.

That said, to my knowlege MKE are the only company approved to make 90 series with the "plugs" as opposed to the full shelf. A case could easily be made that because ATF allowed it with the Turk guns that it is a generally allowable technique but I'm not going to be the guy to test whither it's now OK to put out guns with non-welded PP holes and trigger packs with sears in place.

 

[Shattered Mind]

I'm still trying to figure out why ecmveryone says it's a felony to remove to inner block. If your sn 02, remove away. Now it's a posti but you've got a decent demo/shop gun.

They say it because it's true. If you have a manufacturers license, yes, you can basically do whatever you want... as long as you maintain that license. Considering that for the pleasure of owning one post sample gun, you will need to throw Unka Sam $2750 plus whatever minor fee the initial FFL is per year. DO that for the usual three years a license is issued for and you've just paid $8250 plus what ever the missing FFL fee is.

Having a posti is a very expensive way to get a full auto gun, considering nobody actually gets to make any HK type sales which is the only reason you are allowed to make posties. HK deals direct to LE... you won't.

 

[Schlafftablett]

Again though, it's not been officially decided that removing the receiver block is a felony or anything else (for the general populace). I think 99HMC4 was just pointing out that if one is an 02, even if it is eventaually decided that removing the block is a no-no, it could be done.

My personal feeling is that if one were to add an accepted shelf and properly mod the trigger pack, there is no reason the block could not be removed. That is, of course, the logical train of thought which means that in all liklihood ATF will take a position 180 deg from it.

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

I like that...

That is because you and I are on the same page about so many things.:}
What does North roller coast mean? Can't find nutin' on it.

 

[Obiefox]

North Coast... Cleveland / Northern Ohio term.

North Coast was also a very solid Michael Stanley Band album from 1981 named for the same reason....

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

North Coast... Cleveland / Northern Ohio term.

North Coast was also a very solid Michael Stanley Band album from 1981 named for the same reason....

Wow, I was way off. I was thinking the carolina's.....