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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here's a video of Fonzie's thumbs shooting my P30L & SK. I hate static ranges because I can't shoot the way I'd like. I haven't found a gun club yet that works for me.

 

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That is some strange looking grip. Are you hitting anything? If it works for you, great. I would like to see the other side and know how what you are doing with your fingers. Your thumbs seem to be a lot longer or differently jointed than mine, because I could not duplicate that kind of grip.

I would be interested in your impressions comparing and contrasting the P30L and SK. I currently own the DA/SA P30L and I am considering acquiring an SK.
 

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Neat video.

I use the static range to work on no shoots, and transitions on the targets. I put up three shoots and toss a no shoot up there to keep me honest. The foot work and movement get worked on at the range where I can have the bay to myself. See what ranges your IPSC guys use, and see if you can join.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
My thumbs always tend to flip up like that when I shoot anything smaller than a Sig or G20 and yes I'm hitting exactly what I'm aiming at. lol I don't have an explanation why they point up, they just do. I try to think about laying them down but they just go back up after a few rapid shots without any loss of accuracy. It looks funny to most people so I make fun of it and call it fonzie thumbs.
 

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That is some strange looking grip. Are you hitting anything? If it works for you, great. I would like to see the other side and know how what you are doing with your fingers. Your thumbs seem to be a lot longer or differently jointed than mine, because I could not duplicate that kind of grip.

I would be interested in your impressions comparing and contrasting the P30L and SK. I currently own the DA/SA P30L and I am considering acquiring an SK.
Not necessarily strange. It's an incorrectly executed thumbs-forward grip, and very common. The support hand needs to be rotated forward so that when the pinky is extended it points nearly straight down. The wrist is not rotated enough, commonly referred to as locking out the wrist. Additionally, because of the support hand not being rotated/locked out properly, there is too much of a gap between the heel of the left hand and meaty portion of the right hand. This gap leaves a weak-spot in the grip which recoil will find its way too, most commonly displayed by a grip slowly breaking loose as you run through the magazine without readjusting your grip.

"Thumbs forward" is a misnomer in my opinion.....you can point your thumbs forward without having a proper thumbs-forward grip. Instead, it should be called a "pinky down" grip....it much better verbally demonstrates the important mechanics of the grip.

What you're seeing with his thumbs is just the way they're jointed....mine do the same bend backwards, though during firing I don't bend them backwards. It's nothing though......the thumbs don't play too much of a role in the grip.

If you added in the thumb jointing that freaks like I posses, the grip shown in the video wouldn't be any different from this which is an improperly executed thumbs forward grip:
Google Image Result for https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aL3_xzlYGJQ/TYbCwSZCPZI/AAAAAAAABqg/mxVAMlIZQgM/DSCI1246.JPG

Instead, it should look like this; note the gap being filled between the hands, and the more extreme rotation of the wrist:
Google Image Result for http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/grip052.jpg

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm just explaining the mechanics of the grip, and that what is filmed in the video isn't at all weird and is actually very common.
 

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Not necessarily strange. It's an incorrectly executed thumbs-forward grip, and very common. The support hand needs to be rotated forward so that when the pinky is extended it points nearly straight down. The wrist is not rotated enough, commonly referred to as locking out the wrist. Additionally, because of the support hand not being rotated/locked out properly, there is too much of a gap between the heel of the left hand and meaty portion of the right hand. This gap leaves a weak-spot in the grip which recoil will find its way too, most commonly displayed by a grip slowly breaking loose as you run through the magazine without readjusting your grip.

"Thumbs forward" is a misnomer in my opinion.....you can point your thumbs forward without having a proper thumbs-forward grip. Instead, it should be called a "pinky down" grip....it much better verbally demonstrates the important mechanics of the grip.

What you're seeing with his thumbs is just the way they're jointed....mine do the same bend backwards, though during firing I don't bend them backwards. It's nothing though......the thumbs don't play too much of a role in the grip.

If you added in the thumb jointing that freaks like I posses, the grip shown in the video wouldn't be any different from this which is an improperly executed thumbs forward grip:
Google Image Result for https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aL3_xzlYGJQ/TYbCwSZCPZI/AAAAAAAABqg/mxVAMlIZQgM/DSCI1246.JPG

Instead, it should look like this; note the gap being filled between the hands, and the more extreme rotation of the wrist:
Google Image Result for http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/grip052.jpg

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm just explaining the mechanics of the grip, and that what is filmed in the video isn't at all weird and is actually very common.
oh my god!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
In my defense, It was 105* and my hands were sweating like crazy. :0/ It was really hard to keep a grip no matter how forward I put my support hand. I've taken a few pistol classes at a few school and I've managed to improve a little every time. (..no, not NRA classes, lol.) I'm taking a class at Tigerswan in about a month or so maybe I get some more good training. They say, "Brilliance is in the Basics".
 

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In my defense, It was 105* and my hands were sweating like crazy. :0/ It was really hard to keep a grip no matter how forward I put my support hand. I've taken a few pistol classes at a few school and I've managed to improve a little every time. (..no, not NRA classes, lol.) I'm taking a class at Tigerswan in about a month or so maybe I get some more good training. They say, "Brilliance is in the Basics".
Dude I've heard awesome reviews of TigerSwan. "A perfect finishing school." I'm jealous.

My P2000 gets really slippery when I sweat, too. I put some 3M grip-tape on it.....seems to help a little, and unlike plastering a huge slab on the side a 1" strip on the support side it doesn't rub my skin when carrying. Nothing really solves the problem at an indoor range during the summer with crappy A/C though.
 

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I'm sure he was just poking fun at you for being so serious. :)
no that wasn't my intention, I should have stated myself better. I was blown away at how indepth some of the folks on this forum get. I just take the damn things to the range and shoot em. Passion comes in all forms I guess.
 

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no that wasn't my intention, I should have stated myself better. I was blown away at how indepth some of the folks on this forum get. I just take the damn things to the range and shoot em. Passion comes in all forms I guess.
Different folks have different avocations for sure. Nothing wrong with the shooting for a fun hobby, but it's a ton of fun to make this your craft.
 

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no that wasn't my intention, I should have stated myself better. I was blown away at how indepth some of the folks on this forum get. I just take the damn things to the range and shoot em. Passion comes in all forms I guess.
It's no different than becoming skilled in anything else......proficiency comes from applying a technique, not just doing whatever. There's body mechanics behind most techniques, and a basic understanding of them is usually helpful.

In all honesty, that was a pretty brief overview. There's some videos out there from some very respectable instructors for nationally recognized tactical teams discussing the physiology behind a trigger pull for over......wait for it.....an hour. That's too much for me, personally. I just want a basic understanding for the purposes of application.
 

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It's all good. A truly wise man always attempts to gain more knowledge. Or something like that:)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I wish I knew half as much as some of the pro gun fighter/trainers out there. I'm fairly new to civilian guns and real training. i'm just going to keep taking classes when I can at all the schools I can. I'm hoping to find a Tom Givens class before the end of the summer as well. From what I've been told he's is the trainer with the most documented student involved shootings. Somewhere around 60 and they all won. ..as winning as that can get. If you know what I mean.

I've only got a few classes done now and they were fine. I think me being out of shape is really what's keeping me from taking my training to the next level. I gotta get on that. :0/
 

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no that wasn't my intention, I should have stated myself better. I was blown away at how indepth some of the folks on this forum get. I just take the damn things to the range and shoot em. Passion comes in all forms I guess.
To each their own. Some are shooters and some are collectors. TGS and Wolvee are shooters. That's why they are receptive to one another's criticisms. We learn from our short comings and seek training from qualified trainers (not your local NRA "Instructor").
 

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Nice vid, Wolvee. I notice that you let the trigger return fully after each shot and not at the reset point. When I was learning to shoot LEM, I was ready to give up after 100 rounds or so. My trigger finger couldn't pull anymore. Then I learn to let it out until it hits the reset point and my shots are much improved.
 

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From what I've been told he's is the trainer with the most documented student involved shootings. Somewhere around 60 and they all won. ..as winning as that can get. If you know what I mean.
While it is impressive that his students seem very competent, maybe he should try teaching them to avoid such situations in the first place. Now I know that isn't always possible, but I've seen plenty of people from tactical instructor courses who are openly looking for a fight. A proper mindset needs to be taught as well.
 

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We learn from our short comings and seek training from qualified trainers (not your local NRA "Instructor").
I'd rather people receive training than no training, and if all that is available to them is an NRA instructor so be it. I've met some NRA instructors that are very put together. They serve their purpose. The vast majority of shooters aren't going to find themselves in a "tactical" situation, it will likely be more of a home defense situation. In those cases NRA instruction is usually adequate.
 

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While it is impressive that his students seem very competent, maybe he should try teaching them to avoid such situations in the first place. Now I know that isn't always possible, but I've seen plenty of people from tactical instructor courses who are openly looking for a fight. A proper mindset needs to be taught as well.
I would agree with this. I honestly don't know much about Tom Givens and have to assume that he's a very capable instructor until I know something that makes me think otherwise. That being said, highlighting an instructors indirect "body count" may not be the spin he's looking for. If it is then it raises the question of if he's pumping out gunslingers or has just been fortunate enough to have trained that many people who have been in the unfortunate (and unavoidable) circumstance of having to defend themselves.
 
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