[Drooler]

Am thinking of a RDIAS in a HK416 upper mated to a MR556 lower. With price of RDIAS for AR15 platform going for $15K+, I have a few quick questions:

1. Is steel that much better than aluminum?
Everybody likes steel better, but the only comment I could find from M60Joe is that he fixed 2 steel and 2 aluminum RDIAS.

Aluminum RDIAS? - AR15.Com Archive

There has been discussion about the strength and thickness of the sides whereby the hole the trip sits in, but that is all I found.

Hence, assuming all things equal (thickness, year of manufacturer, amount of previous use, etc.), how much better is steel? To phrase this differently, assume steel is rated an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 (with titanium a 10 out of 10). What should aluminum be on relative basis? 7 out of 10? Or 3 out of 10?

BTW,anybody have experience with AL failure that the RDIAS was destroyed and could not be repaired (beyond the lower blowing up)?


2. Is there a price difference between steel vs. aluminum RDIAS? Should there?
If a mint steel RDIAS is going for $15K? What should the price discount on an aluminum RDIAS be? $1K discount? $3K discount?

I read it is between $2K to $3K discount. I know... I know... Try telling that to the seller. Ha!

Reason for this post is that RDIAS are getting harder to find. Hence, what happens if person offering 1 for sale is a AL RDIAS?

Should seller expect to sell at same price of Steel RDIAS? Rightfully or wrongly? Should buyer expect to pay a slight discount?


3. What should one look out for in a RDIAS?
Based on my research, the ideal RDIAS should be:
A. Steel
B. Have thick sides
C. No or very little modifications
D. Safe queen in previous/current life.

Was told Brands matter because of reputation of the manufacturer, but the above 4 factors are critical or more important. After all, no use buying a great brand RDIAS that has been beat-up, modified and abused more than Paris Hilton.

Any thoughts? BTW, apologies if this topic has been discussed previously.

 

[skullbox]

Good questions. I don't have any full auto stuff, but I also wondered if the sears ever wear out or break. You would think over time it has to wear out or break just like any other machine. Am i corrrect in assuming if you break the thing you are basically out 13k+?

 

[Drooler]

Good questions. I don't have any full auto stuff, but I also wondered if the sears ever wear out or break. You would think over time it has to wear out or break just like any other machine. Am i corrrect in assuming if you break the thing you are basically out 13k+?

My understanding is that anything can be pretty much repaired.

Check out M60Joe.com. Look under M16/AR15 and then click on RDIAS/RLL Repair. There are pictures of RDIAS that he repaired.

Unless... The NFA marking is gone. In that case, the $15K RDIAS pretty much becomes a $2 piece of metal.

That is what I read, but then again, I don't own squat. I will let the others who actually own one chime in.

 

[Shattered Mind]

Am i corrrect in assuming if you break the thing you are basically out 13k+?

I guess anything can break, but I have over 200K of 9mm alone through my Fleming sear and it's also spent a lot of time on another 51, a 51K, a 53 and a 53K. Still looks like new although it's starting to get a polished line across the top where it contacts a hammer occasionally. Most of the time it just stays away from the hammer completely. I'm kinda like that, though. The guns don't get quiet until the mag runs out. There IS a competition exception to that... but not very often.

Haven't heard of a Fleming or Qualified sear breaking yet... but even if it did, you can still weld it.

You'll never be out 13K+...

 

[jjrphs]

RDIAS prices are all over the place.....the last 2 steel RDIAS which sold on Bowers was $18k and $14k respectively. Just before that, an aluminum RDIAS sold for $16k. A steel RDIAS today at $15k would be a pretty darn good price.

As a multiple RDIAS owner, my OPINION would be to go with steel. The perception (rightly or wrongly) of the market is the steel sear is the better sear. If at some point down the road you were to sell......you'd be in a position for a quick sell at a premium price.

The 4 items you outline is section 3 of your post pretty much sum it up. If you find a sear which meet all those criteria, you've found the best of the best.

This forum might not be the best place to mine info regarding the RDIAS......the AR15 section over at the UziTalk forum has a bunch of good threads on RDIAS

 

[99HMC4]

I guess anything can break, but I have over 200K of 9mm alone through my Fleming sear and it's also spent a lot of time on another 51, a 51K, a 53 and a 53K. Still looks like new although it's starting to get a polished line across the top where it contacts a hammer occasionally. Most of the time it just stays away from the hammer completely. I'm kinda like that, though. The guns don't get quiet until the mag runs out. There IS a competition exception to that... but not very often.

Haven't heard of a Fleming or Qualified sear breaking yet... but even if it did, you can still weld it.

You'll never be out 13K+...

Now try that with aluminum.....

 

[scottinthegrove]

As with buying any machinegun, does it run? If it does run, is it within specification? (In other words, did the host gun needed special modifications to get the out of spec sear to function?) I'm fortunate enough to own a steel DIAS and a Fleming HK sear. I happen to own the steel DIAS because I posted a WTB ad just before Christmas. The seller offered it to me, below market value, so I bought it. I would have bought an aluminum one just as quick. I confirmed the paperwork was real and sent the funds. There was enough room between what I paid and market value that I could pay to have a repair if needed and still come out below market value. As far as I'm concerned the actual sear is worth $100-$300. The other thousands of dollars is for the paperwork that makes that couple hundred dollar piece of metal legal to put into a host gun to produce full auto fire.

Most all the rest of your questions, at least IMHO, come down to what you value/what you're willing to pay. If the only DIAS for sale is aluminum and the seller wants $16,000, are you willing to pay that? I love my MP5 type subguns. I have a Colt factory 9mm lower and Colt subgun and DOE uppers to use with my DIAS. It is a blow back gun. The Enidine hydraulic buffer, light AAC recoil spring, and ramped bolt with tungsten weight M60joe did, comes close to my Vollmer converted 94. But the roller locked gun is smoother.

If I could only own one machinegun, it would be my DIAS. The big reason, parts availability and price. A Valkyrie belt fed conversion is 1/3 the price of a MM23. Mike makes beautiful guns. Someday I hope to own one. But for less than the cost of a MM23 I've got a water cooled 20" with KNS spade grips on a MG42 AA mount, a MGI upper with three heavy fluted barrels that have Ares piston kits, a spare Bushmaster heavy barreled upper with an Ares piston kit, and three lowers, all set up to use with the Valkyrie feed mech. And the same goes for a little carbine. A 14.5" upper will run $400-$500. A 33K will be $1,200 to $4,500 to have built, depending on how many German parts you wish to use. YMMV.

Scott

 

[gunz213]

I also have a steel DIAS and a Fleming sear and I agree with Scott that the DIAS is my favorite MG and probably the most versatile MG available. I wanted a steel sear as steel is easier to weld than aluminum in the unlikely event that the sear was damaged, but i would have been happy with an aluminum sear if it was a couple K cheaper.

I wouldn't worry too much about looking for a NIB DIAS as the body isnt stressed and doesn't wear appreciably and the trip can be easily replaced if needed. I have over 16K through mine and it looks the same as the day I bought it. I would put more emphasis on finding a sear that the former owner hasn't seen fit to modify. It's much cheaper in the long run to tweak a $150 lower than a 14-18K sear.

 

[Drooler]

@Shattered Mind.
This reminds me of the saying there is never enough ammo. : )


@jjrphs.
Agree that prices are all over the places. Plus a steel RDIAS that is badly beat-up and heavily modified should be cheaper than an untouched aluminum RDIAS.

Will look for a steel RDIAS and with the factors I outlined above based on my research, but it looks like a seller's market.

Regarding AR15 and UziTalk, I started searching on the 2 forums. Thanks for the pointer.


@Scottinthegrove.
Agree that confirmation of the right paperwork is key. Not sure how you guys felt dealing with private sellers in the past especially with so much money involved.

I know $15K to $18K is chump change for some really rich folks with loads of HKs, but it is a lot of money to me so I will follow your advice and confirm the paperwork is real.


@gunz123
Wow... The DIAS and Flemming Sear look amazing.

Hopefully, my search pans out, and I will have pictures to post. Otherwise, I can always hope for another amnesty again.... Just kidding.

 

[scottinthegrove]

Regarding AR15 and UziTalk, I started searching on the 2 forums. Thanks for the pointer.


@Scottinthegrove.
Agree that confirmation of the right paperwork is key. Not sure how you guys felt dealing with private sellers in the past especially with so much money involved.

I know $15K to $18K is chump change for some really rich folks with loads of HKs, but it is a lot of money to me so I will follow your advice and confirm the paperwork is real.

Hopefully, my search pans out, and I will have pictures to post. Otherwise, I can always hope for another amnesty again.... Just kidding.

As far as information to those boards I would also add subguns.com NFA board. There are quite a few there that are very knowledgeable. On all those sites the search button is your friend. I'd also go to the "Hometown" forums also. I would suggest that it would be a good idea to locate a dealer you want to work with for the transfer. I've heard some horror stories from local guys about transfers from a local dealer to them. It also might be a possibility for an instate sale. I bought my Vollmer converted 94 that was married to a Fleming sear and my first machinegun (a Colt M16 RR that was way below market value), both of which were instate transfer. So there was only one stamp and no dealer transfer fees.

As with any major purchase purchasing through a dealer will give you some level of security buying from a dealer as opposed to buying from a private party out of state. What I've done to buy from a private party out of state is once we agree upon a price, I get the seller to write up a purchase and sales agreement with the terms agreed to. Then they make a second copy and sign both copies. The signed copies of the agreement, a copy of the Form 4 showing ownership at the same address which I'll be sending the funds, and if they have moved an approved 5320.20 showing the change in address to where you are sending the funds. There are lots of other things that can be done to ensure that you are getting what you are paying for.

A Form 4 is tax information. As such, the NFA Examiner can not legally confirm that the machinegun is owned by the person you are dealing with. But they can confirm that the machinegun with that model and serial # was in fact in the registry as a transferable machinegun. Is it possible that you could be scammed? If you do your due diligence, I'd think the odds of that are very low. Personally, I think the risks for someone to scam you would be huge. Grand larceny, mail fraud, falsifying Government documents, etc. would mean more jail time than going into a bank with a gun. Good luck with your 416 project.

Scott

 

[Shattered Mind]

Now try that with aluminum.....

Why? Don't know anyone that welds aluminum? Besides... the body of the DIAS gets no stress. It's the paddle that gets all the punishment and even on an aluminum DIAS, the paddles are all steel... unless an idiot built one out of aluminum and hasn't fired it yet. The only issue with AL bodied DIASs are eventually, the pin hole for the steel paddle may egg out a bit... and that can be repaired easily by drilling the hole larger and sleeving it with a steel tube, and reusing the original steel pin.

 

[jjrphs]

Then they make a second copy and sign both copies. The signed copies of the agreement, a copy of the Form 4 showing ownership at the same address which I'll be sending the funds, and if they have moved an approved 5320.20 showing the change in address to where you are sending the funds.

Just a heads up that a 5320.20 would not apply to an in-state change of address. BATF doesn't require notification of an in-state change of address.

Now try that with aluminum.....

Why? Don't know anyone that welds aluminum? Besides... the body of the DIAS gets no stress. It's the paddle that gets all the punishment and even on an aluminum DIAS, the paddles are all steel... unless an idiot built one out of aluminum and hasn't fired it yet. The only issue with AL bodied DIASs are eventually, the pin hole for the steel paddle may egg out a bit... and that can be repaired easily by drilling the hole larger and sleeving it with a steel tube, and reusing the original steel pin.

I think 99HMC4 was insinuating that an aluminum constructed Fleming style HK sear would not hold up to the 200k round count you assert........since your original post was all about your Fleming sear and not RDIAS. At least that's the way I read it.........

As far as aluminum bodied RDIAS........this is/would be my fear and one of the reasons why I think the market tends to value steel bodied sears more than aluminum bodied sears.

Repairable or not, aluminum is way harder to get right and a lot of welders wouldn't touch it or take on the risk......also, who wants to spend the kind of money RDIAS are fetching now on a previously fracked-up welded up aluminum sear body.

Just my opinion.

 

[99HMC4]

I think 99HMC4 was insinuating that an aluminum constructed Fleming style HK sear would not hold up to the 200k round count you assert........since your original post was all about your Fleming sear and not RDIAS. At least that's the way I read it.........

Bingo....

 

[Shattered Mind]

JI think 99HMC4 was insinuating that an aluminum constructed Fleming style HK sear would not hold up to the 200k round count you assert........since your original post was all about your Fleming sear and not RDIAS. At least that's the way I read it.........

Huh?? Oh... I never even thought to think that anyone would be talking about a Fleming sear made of aluminum. Skull was talking RDIAS (for ARs) and I was just responding to that, using the HK sear as a basis for showing no real wear as I don't have a DIAS to compare it to...

Repairable or not, aluminum is way harder to get right and a lot of welders wouldn't touch it or take on the risk......also, who wants to spend the kind of money RDIAS are fetching now on a previously fracked-up welded up aluminum sear body.

Just my opinion.

Indeed. I DO know a bunch of guys very good in welding aluminum, but even they're a bit antsy about welding $$$ gun parts. One has no fear. Pay in advance and he'll do what you want. He hasn't fracked up anything yet... an Ares employee. And no, not that Ares... the real one in Port Clinton, OH. Gene Stoner's stomping grounds.

 

[Shattered Mind]

Bingo....

Heh... Who ever mentioned aluminum Fleming sears? If you're going to use your imagination, why not use gold, instead? Much worse than aluminum. Lead, mebbe?

 

[99HMC4]

Just illustrating that aluminum really has no place in a part like a sear/sear block. I wouldn't pay top dollar for an aluminum wear part...

 

[bwp777]

this may be a silly response but why could you not make a steel piece to replace the aluminum piece? Once the steel part is made and stamped w/ the correct ser# then destroy the old worn out/ broken aluminum part. If the stamp lists that the DIAS is aluminum then make another aluminum piece then scrap the old part.

 

[Renegade]

this may be a silly response but why could you not make a steel piece to replace the aluminum piece? Once the steel part is made and stamped w/ the correct ser# then destroy the old worn out/ broken aluminum part. If the stamp lists that the DIAS is aluminum then make another aluminum piece then scrap the old part.

Cause that is illegal even though it probably has been done.

Mine is steel.

Though after over 35 years out there, I have only heard of a handful of sears breaking (all at the pin hole), and all were legally fixable.

 

[scottinthegrove]

this may be a silly response but why could you not make a steel piece to replace the aluminum piece? Once the steel part is made and stamped w/ the correct ser# then destroy the old worn out/ broken aluminum part. If the stamp lists that the DIAS is aluminum then make another aluminum piece then scrap the old part.

The body is the registered part. If you read the details of the law, there is a catch 22. Just as an unaltered semi auto receiver with a unregistered sear that is a registered receiver is drilled for the front push pin. Drilling the hole in the receiver makes the receiver a machinegun. But at that same time you'd have an unregistered sear. So in that moment in time you have two machineguns but only paperwork for one, which is illegal. If you destroyed the sear first, now you don't have a machinegun. So the paperwork is null and void.

So if you make a second sear body, you have created a second machinegun. So again in that moment in time you have two machineguns but only paperwork for one, which is illegal. Plus when you destroy the original sear body, you are destroying the original serial #. Has this been done before? I'd imagine it has. Back in the day, if your LL broke, it is my understanding that you had the option (from the manufacturer) to have a replacement LL with your original serial #, or a DIAS with that same #. Those were the days. YMMV.

Scott

 

[bwp777]

I guess I was thinking along the line of a supppressor. If you have a baffle strike and it ruins a part or parts of the can then my understanding is that another part (that is damaged) can be made if the original is destroyed as to not have 2 class 3 items but only paperwork for 1. Is this correct or am i out in left field somewhere?