HKPRO Forums banner

1 - 20 of 54 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
756 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
this was posted tonight on m4carbine.net in the Hk 416 user feedback? thread.
M4Carbine.net Forums - View Single Post - Hk 416 user feedback?

Today, 22:33
Larry Vickers's Avatar
Larry Vickers Online
Subject Matter Expert

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 456
iTrader: (0)
Just a little tidbit gents for the 416 haters out there- I just got some info that one specialized end user currently using 416's tested it against several ( read that as most) current DI and piston guns to find a potential replacement and the result of the test was.....

The HK416 will stay in place as the issue assault rifle

None of the other guns came close to it performance wise from what I was told- you may not like HK but based on what they found during their test no one makes a better gun as of right now

That's all I can say - spin it however you want but this organization can and will buy whatever they want to get the job done; if there was something better they would be using it or in the process of buying it

Be safe

LAV
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,248 Posts
Just saw this myself. Those with some technical savvy and the ability to read between the lines know that he's been alluding to this for some time. I have read and heard him say in person and even in a video made by Daniel Defense, he goes on to say that the piston (as a 416 is pictured) is the better choice for:

1) Short barrels (under 14.5")
2) Running a suppressor
3) Full-auto fire
4) Going between different/types weights of ammo

Basically, these are all the instances that can stress, tax, or induce more malfunctions in a standard DI.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
634 Posts
When reading through that thread I was thinking I was on the other forum with all the hearsay bashing. Glad to see Larry settle things down.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
785 Posts
When reading through that thread I was thinking I was on the other forum with all the hearsay bashing. Glad to see Larry settle things down.
IMO if the thread is about HK or pistons M4carbine.net magically undergoes a metamorphosis into TOS.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,807 Posts
The results of this test were not too surprizing to most in the know. If the gun was not up to the task it would have been replaced in the user units years ago.

The next big test is now ongoing within the US Army's Individual Carbine competition Phase II test phase. Even if the Army does not buy a new carbine as a result the test data will be interesting to see. An improved HK416 is there to take on all challengers.

G3Kurz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
325 Posts
Would be nice if HK imports the components here with unfinished barrels and builds correct 416 uppers here for us after this competition ends. Doubtful but we can dream. I doubt big Army will actually select any replacement and will stick with the m4 improvements as is, considering budgetary cuts and all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
The HK 416 is awesome but not available for civilians right? The MR556 is a great rifle in its own right but it is far from being an HK416 than say the MK 24 vs a commercial HK 45CT. I guess what I'm saying is...I wish I could own an HK 416!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,132 Posts
As I generally tell people when this topic comes up:

There are a couple hundred people in the US military who need a piston gun, and they have them. The HK 416 is the gold standard of piston guns. With that said, they are high quality gun that needs to be balanced with most peoples needs. If I was running a short 5.56 gun, it would be a 416. In a 16" platform for most folks, I think the DI gun has more positives for general use. Larry is one of the guys out there who does a good job of laying out things based on realities for professional end users, vs. kool aid drinkers (I prefer the RED HK Kool Aid...:)). As far as the 416 goes, the military special operations community is one place where it is a near perfect choice of carbine.

In my opinion, the big game changer in a short barrel carbine is going to be .300 Blackout and how platforms develop around that round.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,262 Posts
Just saw this myself. Those with some technical savvy and the ability to read between the lines know that he's been alluding to this for some time. I have read and heard him say in person (while pointing at my gun) and even in a video made by Daniel Defense, he goes on to say that the piston (as a 416 is pictured) is the better choice for:

1) Short barrels (under 14.5")
2) Running a suppressor
3) Full-auto fire
4) Going between different/types weights of ammo

Basically, these are all the instances that can stress, tax, or induce more malfunctions in a standard DI.
Great points!

Also, the HK416 has a longer service life compared to the USG M4. If the cost of both carbines are similar for a contract, then the increased parts life may save some money and reduce weapons down time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,071 Posts
The HK 416 is awesome but not available for civilians right? The MR556 is a great rifle in its own right but it is far from being an HK416 than say the MK 24 vs a commercial HK 45CT. I guess what I'm saying is...I wish I could own an HK 416!
Technically, HK won't sell the HK416 to civilians.

The HK416 lower, which is FA capable, is not available to civilians because the HK416 did not exist before the ban.
The HK416 upper is available in very limited amounts and at a very high cost
- WTS: HK416 10.4" AH Upper, 98%, $4400
- IIRC, the seller who posted on sturm is a HKPro member who posted it here as well

If you want a HK416, I believe there is a legal solution assuming you live in a state that allows NFA. Purchase a HK416 upper, mate it to a lower (preferably a MR556A1) and.... spend $17K on a RDIAS!! :62:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts
The results of this test were not too surprizing to most in the know. If the gun was not up to the task it would have been replaced in the user units years ago.

The next big test is now ongoing within the US Army's Individual Carbine competition Phase II test phase. Even if the Army does not buy a new carbine as a result the test data will be interesting to see. An improved HK416 is there to take on all challengers.

G3Kurz
Just wondering, what sort of improvements do the newer 416s have over the AF/AH dated ones? Only thing I can think of is the barrel profile/weight from AF to AH.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,262 Posts
Just wondering, what sort of improvements do the newer 416s have over the AF/AH dated ones? Only thing I can think of is the barrel profile/weight from AF to AH.
My understanding is that the HK416 IC has a redesigned AGR b/c when running HK416 suppressed without an AGR, some mags won't lock the bolt to the rear after the last shot (416 end users please correct me if I'm wrong) and that an AGR would mean less wear and tear due to lowering the cyclic rate during suppressed fire. From what I heard an AGR was also needed to ensure the rifle will function properly with all the different types of ammo the army wants candidate weapons to fire. I'm pretty sure G3 kurz can give you a better answer than me and he is way more qualified than me to answer this question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Just wondering, what sort of improvements do the newer 416s have over the AF/AH dated ones? Only thing I can think of is the barrel profile/weight from AF to AH.
Well, my MR556 upper has a number of improvements from my AF 14.5" 416 Upper. To name a couple, it has the extractor supporting nub and the cut on the right side for ambi-charging handle. Interestingly, there is a small amount of material removed from the MR556 rail on the lower end that faces the lower receiver that is present on the 416 upper. I've noticed that the 416 upper will be tight to get on with certain lowers, but not so with the MR556 upper. It appears to be cut down intentionally, but there are some other minor milling differences between the two rails, so I can't be sure it's not just an unintentional benefit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Technically, HK won't sell the HK416 to civilians.

The HK416 lower, which is FA capable, is not available to civilians because the HK416 did not exist before the ban.
The HK416 upper is available in very limited amounts and at a very high cost
- WTS: HK416 10.4" AH Upper, 98%, $4400
- IIRC, the seller who posted on sturm is a HKPro member who posted it here as well

If you want a HK416, I believe there is a legal solution assuming you live in a state that allows NFA. Purchase a HK416 upper, mate it to a lower (preferably a MR556A1) and.... spend $17K on a RDIAS!! :62:
That's all? I'm getting seven of them!

Maybe one day it will be legal again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
411 Posts
From what I heard an AGR was also needed to ensure the rifle will function properly with all the different types of ammo the army wants candidate weapons to fire.
I only think that the AGR provides two settings, Normal and Suppressed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
411 Posts
Unless the AGR is different from the one pictured on the first page of that thread, I don't think you can tune it. At least from what the pictures show.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,248 Posts
Today:

Not sure if I posted this in my SME forum before but here goes; many of my students have heard this and I mention it on my Daniel Defense carbine DVD's-
Piston AR's have their place- to determine if you need one ask yourself four questions;

1) Do I need a barrel length shorter than 14.5 inches
2) Do I need to run my gun suppressed a lot
3) Do I need to shoot a lot of full auto
4) Do I need to shoot a wide variety of ammo

Piston guns have been shown to be superior in those four categories over a DI gun. If you can say no to all four questions a good DI gun will do you fine

My favorite DI brands are Daniel Defense ( who I am a consultant for), BCM ( who is one of my show sponsors along with DD) , and Colt ( who I have no affiliation with- other than a buddy who works there)- from what I have seen all three of those brands build good solid AR style rifles that are proven performers

In piston AR's the gold standard of course is the HK 416- the civilian legal version called the MR556 is basically the same gun with some changes like a heavier, non chrome lined bore that make it different enough that some people prefer to source a grey market HK 416 upper or choose a different piston gun. The MR556 has an excellent reputation for accuracy and although heavy is a very well made rifle. Another piston brand I have seen that I have seen good results with is LWRC - the majority of LWRC guns I have seen in my classes perform well; If I wanted a piston AR and did not want an HK product I would look at an LWRC offering.

The Internet, and M4C is no exception, has been full of non objective comments and threads regarding this subject- I would urge potential buyers to sort thru the emotion to determine what makes sense for them - remember any of the guns I listed with good ammo ( getting harder to find these days at a reasonable cost), good magazines and well lubed have proven to be reliable performers; in fact we live in the golden era of AR style black rifles- never before has there been so many good choices in this category

There are other quality brands on the market to be sure- I just listed the ones that I have the most experience with and have seen the fewest problems with in my classes

Now the task is up to you to take the emotion out of your decision making process and buy a carbine that you decide will get the job done

Be safe

LAV
 
1 - 20 of 54 Posts
Top