HKPRO Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,202 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Why because he likes it.

Question is if you already have a registered receiver.

Can you put the hole in the shelf to make it a push pin?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,251 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,202 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
HK41 Grandfathered in. First ones in the country had the push pin hole. After that the ATF decide that it was to easy to convert. So the shelf was added. Great to see that people are willing to beat a dead horse.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
2,037 Posts
I guess the Uzi analogy is one can't mill out a blocking bar on a registered receiver.

I understand the horsebeating...b/c it's ATF rules are so damn convoluted and nonsensical. Youd' THINK that if the receiver was the reg. part then one could mess with that one gun part as one saw fit.....

-HH
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,845 Posts
I guess the Uzi analogy is one can't mill out a blocking bar on a registered receiver.

I understand the horsebeating...b/c it's ATF rules are so damn convoluted and nonsensical. Youd' THINK that if the receiver was the reg. part then one could mess with that one gun part as one saw fit.....

-HH
I always figured my hobby was following the convolved BATFE rules (or what ever they are this week ;-) and only had the Tittle II toys to make it real (i.e. can get time if make a mistake ;-).

For someone my age is even more interesting as use to be able to Form1 nearly anything in the old days but short shotguns, HE, WP and NBC (for nuclear, biological and chemical ;-)... but did not as why would someone want to add a $200 tax to a perfectly good Colt SP1 for only a few times that price, was like buying a suppressor now days, hard to resale with out loosing you shirt.

Take Care
John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,468 Posts
I guess the Uzi analogy is one can't mill out a blocking bar on a registered receiver.

I understand the horsebeating...b/c it's ATF rules are so damn convoluted and nonsensical. Youd' THINK that if the receiver was the reg. part then one could mess with that one gun part as one saw fit.....

-HH
To me the Tech Branch reasoning is the same as cutting the hole in a HK RR using an unregistered sear with an unaltered semi auto receiver. There is only registration for one machinegun. The RR using an unregistered sear with an unaltered semi auto receiver is only one machinegun as it is. If the hole is drilled in the receiver, then the receiver becomes a machinegun, but the unregistered sear is a machinegun. So two machineguns exist at that point in time. It is not possible for a Manufacturer to register a machinegun that he didn't make. So even if a Manufacturer did the work there would be no way to cover the unregistered sear. If the sear is destroyed before the hole is drilled then the gun isn't a machinegun anymore, so the paperwork is null and void.

The same can be said for the Uzi. There are registered full auto bolts with the slot for the blocking bar. Just like the HK example above, if the blocking bar is removed from the RR it becomes a machinegun in and of itself. At the same time you would have an unregistered slotted full auto bolt. My understanding is that a slotted full auto bolt is also considered a machinegun. So again, there would be two machineguns, and only one set of paperwork. Even a manufacturer doing the work can't register the slotted bolt. If the slotted bolt is destroyed before milling the bar in the RR, the gun is not a machinegun any more. (Did I beat the horse enough?)

My understanding is the intent of the Hughs Amendment is that eventually transferable machineguns would wear out and go away. It makes sense that "repairing" (drilling the hole in the unaltered receiver) should be done to make that RR conform to the Tech Branch guidelines for a HK or Uzi RR. But given the intent of the Hughs Amendment, the ATF is required to do what they do. I don't like it, but I do understand it. Your Mileage May Very.

Scott
 

·
HKPRO PREMIUM PARTNER
Joined
·
1,049 Posts
So if you have a Colt AR-15 SP1 which was registered as a MG before the May 86 cutoff date, and are just now getting around to drilling and milling the registered receiver for the auto trip sear; what's the difference? A registered HK91/93/94 machine gun before the May 86 cutoff date should be allowed to have it's registered receiver modified as necessary to make it into a machine gun; whether you drill the 'evil' hole or clip and add a F/A trigger pack. Its already registered as a machine gun; hence the pre-86 approved/stamped NFA paperwork that says so... Or is it just MUCH MORE of a machine gun with a &^%$ing hole in it? Seems to me that there is a double standard here if you are still allowed to drill-n-mill your registered machine gun AR-15 lower receiver for installing a generic-unmarked-surplus auto trip sear, but yet you can't grind off the little ledge and drill a hole on your pre-86 registered HK receiver... Am I the only one that smells something rotten here?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
I was working for Billistics back when the 86 cutoff was looming, and we were processing about 300 various HK models to become RR push pin guns. We were warned that we would have a compliance check about 60 days after the cutoff, and if "significant" (ATF's word) progress had not been completed on these receivers, the paperwork would be voided and the receivers would remain Title 1 firearms. Spent some long days on the Brideport but by the time ATF rolled in, all the shelfs and blocking inserts were gone, 94's also had the bbls chopped, and all were approved. I know of other manufacturers back then that didnt have their ducks in a row and several hundred registrations were voided.
 

·
HKPRO PREMIUM PARTNER
Joined
·
1,049 Posts
I was working for Billistics back when the 86 cutoff was looming, and we were processing about 300 various HK models to become RR push pin guns. We were warned that we would have a compliance check about 60 days after the cutoff, and if "significant" (ATF's word) progress had not been completed on these receivers, the paperwork would be voided and the receivers would remain Title 1 firearms.

...back then that didnt have their ducks in a row and several hundred registrations were voided.
I'll bet that BATF didn't check on squat. The US Treasury Dept got their $200 on each transfer and they were good with that. Nobody back then had their $200 NFA fee returned to them showing "Sucks To Be You" (or thereabouts) because of a mandated no-$hit compliance date; as long as the NFA paperwork was submitted with a valid (and officially legal) US Postal cancellation date stamp that met the pre-May 86 date; you were covered. Once issued, that coveted NFA paperwork showed your gun was now a NFA item, even though it was still in semi-auto config, but you now possessed a legal MG in the eyes of the BATF. "Compliance check...60 days after the cutoff date?" Yeah, that was nothing but Govt 'smoke-n-mirrors' BS. So, did the goon squad ever show up at your facility? Probably not, but If so, did they show some sort of supplemental compliance requirement regulation for the subjective 60 day conversion period? Can you imagine that this same 'compliance' time period would have applied to tens of thousands of customers that legally registered their guns as MGs prior to the May 86 cutoff date; scattered across all 50 States? Yeah, BATF was going to pay a visit within 60 days for a compliance check...right...

Dead Horse here?...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
So wait, your saying I can't drill both sides of the shelf for my paddle mag release?

;)
You are correct, you may not drill through both sides. That said, even though the rules indicate you may not drill through, there is nothing that states you may not drill into. It is my understanding that if you leave an umpteen millionth of an inch un-drilled, you are OK. Hell, I don't make the rules. I just find ways around them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
765 Posts
I guess the Uzi analogy is one can't mill out a blocking bar on a registered receiver.

I understand the horsebeating...b/c it's ATF rules are so damn convoluted and nonsensical. Youd' THINK that if the receiver was the reg. part then one could mess with that one gun part as one saw fit.....

-HH
My understanding is that the law actually defines the making of a firearm to include modifying it. Therefor once you start to functionally (opposed to cosmetically) modify the receiver, you are "making" a new firearm. Does it pass the common sense test? No. Then again, bureaucracy never does.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,468 Posts
I'll bet that BATF didn't check on squat. The US Treasury Dept got their $200 on each transfer and they were good with that. Nobody back then had their $200 NFA fee returned to them showing "Sucks To Be You" (or thereabouts) because of a mandated no-$hit compliance date; as long as the NFA paperwork was submitted with a valid (and officially legal) US Postal cancellation date stamp that met the pre-May 86 date; you were covered. Once issued, that coveted NFA paperwork showed your gun was now a NFA item, even though it was still in semi-auto config, but you now possessed a legal MG in the eyes of the BATF. "Compliance check...60 days after the cutoff date?" Yeah, that was nothing but Govt 'smoke-n-mirrors' BS. So, did the goon squad ever show up at your facility? Probably not, but If so, did they show some sort of supplemental compliance requirement regulation for the subjective 60 day conversion period? Can you imagine that this same 'compliance' time period would have applied to tens of thousands of customers that legally registered their guns as MGs prior to the May 86 cutoff date; scattered across all 50 States? Yeah, BATF was going to pay a visit within 60 days for a compliance check...right...

Dead Horse here?...
Just to be clear, "bluetwister" was working for a Manufacturer. A Manufacturer pays a set amount of tax (depending on whether they gross over or under a certain amount) to make as many machineguns as they want. Once the receiver or conversion device is 80% or more completed, the Manufacturer must file a Form 2. There is no tax paid with a Form 2. The Form 2 simply notifies the NFA Branch that a NFA item has been created by the manufacturer and the NFA Branch should add the item to the NFA Registry. Because of the ban of producing transferable machineguns after May 19, 1986 many manufacturers sent quite a few Form 2s for machineguns. The NFA needed to see that these new machineguns from these Form 2s actually existed. So I'd imagine that any manufacturer that sent in a bunch of Form 2s for machineguns just before the ban would have gotten a visit.

As far as private individuals, it might be that there are several Form 1s submitted to make a machinegun and the owner hasn't gotten around to it. My understanding is that the NFA item that a Form 1 is submitted for can not be made until receiving the approved form. But I'm not aware of any time limit after the Form was submitted to complete the item. So it would be useless for Agents to check whether a Form 1 recipient (who did pay a $200 tax) had actually built their item because the recipient has no required time frame. YMMV.

Scott
 

·
HKPRO PREMIUM PARTNER
Joined
·
1,049 Posts
And another thing, back then, there wasn't any surplus swingdown F/A lowers (with forward 'ears') available, so this is where Fleming came up with the 'H' sear that was meant to convert S/A lowers (thank you very much). If there would have been an abundance of swingdown F/A lowers available, heck, he would have just pulled out those sears, etched a serial number on them, and registered them (as is). Even if there were available swingdown F/A lowers back then, who would have known the source; the internet was not yet available, so finding HK F/A parts was by word of mouth (or perhaps a small-font 'For Sale' in the Shotgun News Classifieds). Back then with approved Form 2, and just like today when making a SBR with approved Form 1, you are the maker of an NFA weapon. Most of us weren't privy to Forms 1 thru 4 and most of us never cared about being a MG owner. Seems I recall someone mentioning the May cutoff date, but by then, I never had time to research what it was all about; even my local FFL dealer hadn't heard about it. There was a lot of confusion on how one could legally convert/modify their HK rifle, so this is why you see registered receivers, registered trigger packs, and registered trip sears (some of which are really abominations in design/function).

Best advice is to contact the BATFE on your registered receiver and explain what you would like to do by drilling the 'evil' hole in it. Its not like you need a registered Fleming sear, so a FA swingdown trigger pack would be the way to go. I doubt you'd ever want to take your gun off the NFA registry and waive its rights to be a semi-only gun once again. Obviously if it had a hole in the receiver, then that would be something that you could never do (once drilled), unless you are good at welding, or you need a hole in your head for de-registering your gun... That thought makes me cringe...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
I'll bet that BATF didn't check on squat. The US Treasury Dept got their $200 on each transfer and they were good with that. Nobody back then had their $200 NFA fee returned to them showing "Sucks To Be You" (or thereabouts) because of a mandated no-$hit compliance date; as long as the NFA paperwork was submitted with a valid (and officially legal) US Postal cancellation date stamp that met the pre-May 86 date; you were covered. Once issued, that coveted NFA paperwork showed your gun was now a NFA item, even though it was still in semi-auto config, but you now possessed a legal MG in the eyes of the BATF. "Compliance check...60 days after the cutoff date?" Yeah, that was nothing but Govt 'smoke-n-mirrors' BS. So, did the goon squad ever show up at your facility? Probably not, but If so, did they show some sort of supplemental compliance requirement regulation for the subjective 60 day conversion period? Can you imagine that this same 'compliance' time period would have applied to tens of thousands of customers that legally registered their guns as MGs prior to the May 86 cutoff date; scattered across all 50 States? Yeah, BATF was going to pay a visit within 60 days for a compliance check...right...

Dead Horse here?...
You are aware that Title II manufacturers don't pay transfer fees correct? This was on the manufacturer level. Ask Hard Times Armory how many registrations for HK sears were kicked back as unapproved in 86. Bill Fleming as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
And another thing, back then, there wasn't any surplus swingdown F/A lowers (with forward 'ears') available, so this is where Fleming came up with the 'H' sear that was meant to convert S/A lowers (thank you very much). If there would have been an abundance of swingdown F/A lowers available, heck, he would have just pulled out those sears, etched a serial number on them, and registered them (as is). Even if there were available swingdown F/A lowers back then, who would have known the source; the internet was not yet available, so finding HK F/A parts was by word of mouth (or perhaps a small-font 'For Sale' in the Shotgun News Classifieds). Back then with approved Form 2, and just like today when making a SBR with approved Form 1, you are the maker of an NFA weapon. Most of us weren't privy to Forms 1 thru 4 and most of us never cared about being a MG owner. Seems I recall someone mentioning the May cutoff date, but by then, I never had time to research what it was all about; even my local FFL dealer hadn't heard about it. There was a lot of confusion on how one could legally convert/modify their HK rifle, so this is why you see registered receivers, registered trigger packs, and registered trip sears (some of which are really abominations in design/function).

Best advice is to contact the BATFE on your registered receiver and explain what you would like to do by drilling the 'evil' hole in it. Its not like you need a registered Fleming sear, so a FA swingdown trigger pack would be the way to go. I doubt you'd ever want to take your gun off the NFA registry and waive its rights to be a semi-only gun once again. Obviously if it had a hole in the receiver, then that would be something that you could never do (once drilled), unless you are good at welding, or you need a hole in your head for de-registering your gun... That thought makes me cringe...
Although few manufacturers took advantage of it, (due to expense VS homemade sears) HK Chantilly sold swing down lowers for the MP5's to Title II manufacturers back then.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top