[straightgrain]

One of the other moderators asked me a question regarding the re-marking of weapons and the ethics involved with that. I had to respond that I honestly did not know where to draw the line or if there even was one. I've been giving it a lot of thought and decided that it might be good fodder for discussion. Please allow me to establish the premises:

The topic at hand is not about the required markings or additional markings required by the ATF in the case of making certain NFA weapons. What I *think* this discussion is about is the "conversion" marking and other forms of marking.

For instance, it is common practice that when an HK 94 get "converted" to an MP5 configuration, the "converter" re-engraves the weapon with a likeness of the correct HK MP5 markings. Same for other weapons that wind up as something that they did not start out to be. I know that this is done a lot. My questions would be, do you think that this is right?

In the second case, I'd like to know your opinion on folks engraving HK markings on weapons that never were. Is this the same thing as described above? Better, worse, ethical?

I'm not calling anyone out for the practice, I'd just like to know how consumers, in general, feel about it.

 

[SCL]

The original serial number stays on the host weapon that was converted, so you can later identify what it was (i.e. a HK 94 before it was built up to be a MP5, or a 91 into a 51, etc.) prior to conversion. I think its a free country and owners should be allowed to mark whatever they want on their private property provided the original serial number remains.

SCL

 

[straightgrain]

What about items for re-sale? Is it still acceptable or is that misleading.

What about copying the HK trademark in the additions?

 

[CZ-75]

I have no problems remarking a HK94 to MP5 once the "conversion" is done to be a SBR. The serial number is left alone, and the serial number prefix designates that it started life as a HK94. Also, the semi auto shelf is still there. If someone is buying a converted HK94, they should be aware that there is no such thing as a real MP5 available for civilians, and that even the rrpp conversions started as a 94. On the other hand, selling a conversion and holding it out as a "factory" MP5 to mislead an otherwise ignorant buyer would be unnethical.

I do not believe it is ethical to put any HK markings on a non-HK (clone) firearm.

 

[carboncycles]

I do not believe it is ethical to put any HK markings on a non-HK (clone) firearm.

When you mention "HK markings", I am assuming you mean the HK logo. If so, isn't that a blatant violation of trademark law especially considering HK corporate may not have given permission?

 

[UncleBilly]

OK, someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't civilian imported HK rifles marked as HKXX on the mag wells? if you add a say MP-5 on a converted HK 94, how can someone be confused that it's a real MP, especially since it's a semi-auto?

As for marking a clone with a HKXX, big deal, if someone wants to spend the money to do that, who is someone to says it's not ethical, because it just happens to be HK. I can see if someone starts using the HK logo and stamping out receivers for sale, but a private person having that engraved on his clone, what is the big deal? It is no different then someone taking a AK trunion and engraving a Soviet/Russian arsenal mark on it, or engraving cyrillic lettering on the selector lever

 

[AviatorDave]

OK, someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't civilian imported HK rifles marked as HKXX on the mag wells? if you add a say MP-5 on a converted HK 94, how can someone be confused that it's a real MP, especially since it's a semi-auto?

As for marking a clone with a HKXX, big deal, if someone wants to spend the money to do that, who is someone to says it's not ethical, because it just happens to be HK. I can see if someone starts using the HK logo and stamping out receivers for sale, but a private person having that engraved on his clone, what is the big deal? It is no different then someone taking a AK trunion and engraving a Soviet/Russian arsenal mark on it, or engraving cyrillic lettering on the selector lever

Agree.

One side point - HK94s and MP5s are marked on the spine of the receiver, not the mag well. Not sure why, maybe there wasn't enough room on the smaller 9mm mag well.

 

[straightgrain]

Interesting takes. I agree that a person should pretty much be allowed to do whatever the heck he/she wants with their own property.

However, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when a re-stamped item appears for re-sale without complete disclosure. I know about caveat emptor and all of that. But using the HK logo without disclosure to help the sale when that logo was not applied by HK or was applied without permission is at the very least deceptive and at the other end a violation of copyright and trademark regs.

This re-marking can be taken to the extreme. Somebody could easily have a personal weapon re-marked or engraved to look like it was the genuine dealio from HK. Right down to the look and feel of real HK weapons, safety warnings and all. For personal use, great. But what if that item winds up on the open market? Is it just tough toenails if the buyer doesn't ask if it's real?

 

[AviatorDave]

Interesting takes. I agree that a person should pretty much be allowed to do whatever the heck he/she wants with their own property.

However, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when a re-stamped item appears for re-sale without complete disclosure. I know about caveat emptor and all of that. But using the HK logo without disclosure to help the sale when that logo was not applied by HK or was applied without permission is at the very least deceptive and at the other end a violation of copyright and trademark regs.

This re-marking can be taken to the extreme. Somebody could easily have a personal weapon re-marked or engraved to look like it was the genuine dealio from HK. Right down to the look and feel of real HK weapons, safety warnings and all. For personal use, great. But what if that item winds up on the open market? Is it just tough toenails if the buyer doesn't ask if it's real?

In the case of a remarked MP5 or G3, any buyer should know that it's been remarked. I guess this is my take - if it starts out as a real German HK whatever, and just gets remarked with a different model number, I"m ok with it.

Now if someone took, say, one of these MP5 flats, rolled it, and engraved it to copy the factory engraving and tried to sell THAT as a factory gun, then that would clearly be deceptive (and probably illegal as well).

Do you have a specific example in mind?

 

[straightgrain]

Actually, yes. You were pretty spot on. An MP5 flat that was rolled and welded and then engraved to look and feel just like the real deal. Probably illegal as all get out, even if it was made to only take semi triggers. I just know how easy that thing could be passed off.

And then there was the guy who mentioned to me at a fairly large show how easy it would be to set up the xxx of 500 engraving for P7M8's... how many do I want, any specific numbers...

It does give one pause.

 

[UncleBilly]

This re-marking can be taken to the extreme. Somebody could easily have a personal weapon re-marked or engraved to look like it was the genuine dealio from HK. Right down to the look and feel of real HK weapons, safety warnings and all. For personal use, great. But what if that item winds up on the open market? Is it just tough toenails if the buyer doesn't ask if it's real?

Well for one, aren't MP-5 etc.. "real deals", have a hole through the receiver for a "pin and clipped" trigger pack? From my understanding from folks here say that putting a hole in the receiver for a "clip and pin" triggerpack, constitutes a MG. so if the person is going to do that, he will have more problems then just copying a HK receiver.

Like anything else in this world, folks that are in the market for things, need to do some research before plunking down money. Remember it's take 2 people for the scam to work, the scammer and the scamee, take out one of those, and the scam does not work.

You can't go around saving people from themselves, that would be a 24/7 "job", and even then, they probably wouldn't listen anyway.

 

[rollin_hot]

If I own a V6 Ford pickup truck and want to buy an emblem that says "V8" I should be able to do that as long as I don't try to sell it as a V8. That being said, you should'nt buy Ford emblems for a Chevy and visa versa.

Ok, enough rambling...I think it is ok to mark an HK with whatever you want as long as you don't misrepresent what it is to a potential buyer. Also, if you mark something "HK" that never was or never will be, that is trademark infringement and troll-esque in my opinion and once again should not be misrepresented at time of sale.

I have been toying with the idea of restamping an SP89 as an MP5K and the only thing holding me back is trying to decide if it is worth more to a buyer in original configuration or restamped as an MP5K. Most people on this site that responded stated it was worth more to them with the restamp even knowing it never was and probably never will be an MP5K (can't justify the $13-$15k for a sear).

 

[straightgrain]

Thanks for the input, folks. I do appreciate it. I'm not out to save the world! Just want to take its temperature...

 

[AviatorDave]

Well for one, aren't MP-5 etc.. "real deals", have a hole through the receiver for a "pin and clipped" trigger pack? From my understanding from folks here say that putting a hole in the receiver for a "clip and pin" triggerpack, constitutes a MG. so if the person is going to do that, he will have more problems then just copying a HK receiver.

Like anything else in this world, folks that are in the market for things, need to do some research before plunking down money. Remember it's take 2 people for the scam to work, the scammer and the scamee, take out one of those, and the scam does not work.

You can't go around saving people from themselves, that would be a 24/7 "job", and even then, they probably wouldn't listen anyway.

You're close. Clipped and pinned is actually the reverse of what you're thinking - it is the act of modifying a pack that was designed for a push-pin receiver so it will fit around the semi-auto shelf. It is the pack that is modified, not the receiver.

There was a time when the ATF would allow registered receivers to be created by removing the semi-auto shelf and putting the pushpin hole and bushing in. They later stopped that.

But you're correct about adding the hole - if you do that now, you are in violation. It's a little silly still, because unless you also removed the shelf, a swing down lower would still not fit. In fact - to install the pin for the flapper mag release, even though it must be only a 1/8" pin that the pushpin wouldn't fint through anyhow, you have to be sure and not drill through both sides. Even though the pin will be welded back in anyways. It's like a 3rd grader came up with the rules.

 

[TexasJim]

Ok, sorry to be ingorant here but I have to ask, What does NFA & rrpp, stand for???


As far as someone putting HK on their own personal property. That should fall under the same guide lines as movies, music, or TV.

To redistribute or sell is purely illegal.

Until a few moments ago, and I am telling a big one on me, I did not know that HK didn't produce the MP5 as a weapon for civilan sales. I would be one of the unsupcting people who wood overpay for such an item!! Not now. and I really don't think I would want one that wasn't an acticual real thing.

That being said,I would only want to buy a real HK for many reasons.
1. I trust HK . not saying a clone wouldn't be as good but I know HK is.

2. What about general safty? If I build a car that is on a salvage tital, and someone get killed in it, If I didn't disclose that to the buyer, I could no longer have anything by the time the buyers attornies get done with me.

3. Dependability, If I was in a confortation and my "clone" failed me. Who pays that price?? Not the guy who sold me the piece of crap just so he could make more money!!

4. It is just plane, unethical and wrong!!

We are living in a society that fears nothing because of gross over production of Attornies. ( I have nothing aginst attornies.) People are fast to blame the other guy, and not be responsible for themselves.

If you do something and can be sued, guess what? The papers are being filed in district court as I type this. If I purchased such a weapon that was a re-marked by some person . I am stuck with it or I have to have that re-marking filed off if I would try to resell it.

This is a very debateable question, and I know we will not solve it.

Good topic though. TJ

 

[AviatorDave]

Ok, sorry to be ingornat here but I have to ask, What does NFA & rrpp, stand for???


As far as someone putting HK on their own personal property. That should fall under the same guide lines as movies, music, or TV.

To redistribute or sell is purely illegal.

Until a few moments ago, and I am telling a big one on me, I did not know that HK didn't produce the MP5 as a weapon for civilan sales. I would be one of the unsupcting people who wood overpay for such an item!! Not now. and I really don't think I would want one that wasn't an acticual real thing.

Good topic though. TJ

NFA = National Firearms Act. This is the law that regulates all machine guns, short barrelled rifles, silencers, destructive devices, and "any other weapon" like sawed-off shotguns, pen guns, and the like.

rrpp = Registered Receiver Push Pin - most MP5s made from HK94s still have the semi-auto shelf. A Push Pin Registered Receiver has the front hole that the trigger pack attaches to, so it can swing-down and remain attached to the receiver, the way the MP5 was designed to work.

But keep in mind that you will never own an actual real 100% factory MP5. I'm not sure of the numbers, but they are exceedingly rare. Anything you get that is an MP5 will be one that was converted from an HK94. It wasn't made as an MP5 by the factory, but for all intents and purposes, is identical to one, except for the semi-auto shelf if it has one. A push-pin registered recevier is as exact a copy as you can possibly get.

So don't think a converted MP5 as "not a real HK". It by all means is the real thing, it was just not built that way in Oberndorf, Germany, but by an HK gunsmith over here. Here's an analogy - let's say you wanted to build a C-47 Skytrain - a military troop transport plane from WWII. But all the C-47s were destroyed. Fortunately, a C-47 was just a militarized version of a Douglass DC-3. So, all you do is find a DC-3, scrounge up all the parts from various scrapped C-47s, and assemble all those parts into your DC-3 airframe, give it a correct C-47 paint job, and voila! You have a C-47 worthy of the airshow circuit. Make sense?

Now these are different from the "clones" everyone talks about. Clones can be MP5s that are made using either no, some, or all German HK parts, with the exception of one part - the receiver. Clones have receivers that were not made by HK or any other HK contract company.

 

[Trip]

I have a factory correct MP5-F that is 100% german save the receiver
(and yes it is correct to the T)

I have no issues having MP5-F engraved on the spine of the receiver...
There is no ethical question here. I bought all german F parts and had them installed in a US made receiver. That receiver still has BobCat weapons and city/state on the right side of the magwell. The form one still has all the US addresses on it...

There is no subterfuge going on. If I ever sold it, I would think the buyer would appreciate it as well. It adds to the authentic appearance. What schmuck would actually think there was a MP5 made in arizona?

(eta: HK is not marked, Just the mp5-f)

 

[KBAR04]

I dont have a problem with remarking model numbers on a rifle, clone or Genuine HK. My problem is marking a clone as a genuine HK-crossing the line in my opinion. Ive only seen one done like this. I dont think its even legal-changing the manufacturer's marking. I believe by ATF rules the manufacturer markings have to be retained, be it JLD, HK, etc. Otherwise, model type markings are at your whim.

 

[rext]

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68540

Is this kind of what the original question was about? I dont mean any disrespect to SLICK because this is a very nice gun.
In this case a unsuspecting buyer could get hurt bad on this gun.This is not a NFA gun so no problems there.It is a clip on lower just like original so no problems there either.This was a original HK 91 so all the original markings are intact but the model was changed to PSG1.


A note here: This gun has not been misrepresented and is not the intent of the seller to fraud someone.But it could happen on a gun this nice if that was the intent.

And just for the record,I dont have a problem with it if everyone is honest about it.

 

[TexasJim]

NFA = National Firearms Act. This is the law that regulates all machine guns, short barrelled rifles, silencers, destructive devices, and "any other weapon" like sawed-off shotguns, pen guns, and the like.

rrpp = Registered Receiver Push Pin - most MP5s made from HK94s still have the semi-auto shelf. A Push Pin Registered Receiver has the front hole that the trigger pack attaches to, so it can swing-down and remain attached to the receiver, the way the MP5 was designed to work.

But keep in mind that you will never own an actual real 100% factory MP5. I'm not sure of the numbers, but they are exceedingly rare. Anything you get that is an MP5 will be one that was converted from an HK94. It wasn't made as an MP5 by the factory, but for all intents and purposes, is identical to one, except for the semi-auto shelf if it has one. A push-pin registered recevier is as exact a copy as you can possibly get.

So don't think a converted MP5 as "not a real HK". It by all means is the real thing, it was just not built that way in Oberndorf, Germany, but by an HK gunsmith over here. Here's an analogy - let's say you wanted to build a C-47 Skytrain - a military troop transport plane from WWII. But all the C-47s were destroyed. Fortunately, a C-47 was just a militarized version of a Douglass DC-3. So, all you do is find a DC-3, scrounge up all the parts from various scrapped C-47s, and assemble all those parts into your DC-3 airframe, give it a correct C-47 paint job, and voila! You have a C-47 worthy of the airshow circuit. Make sense?

Now these are different from the "clones" everyone talks about. Clones can be MP5s that are made using either no, some, or all German HK parts, with the exception of one part - the receiver. Clones have receivers that were not made by HK or any other HK contract company.

Thanks for the clarifcation, and lesson on this subject. TJ