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Discussion Starter #1
Ok I have several things to discuss/ask here. I unfortunately am back on the mp5 train. A couple years ago I had two Special Weapons clone uppers in my hands and sold them before shooting them. Was not impressed with the quality. However these Zenith MKE's look to be dang good guns. I have a couple thoughts.

1. Why are MP5 clones called clones? I mean if its due to the lack of full auto configuration I totally understand. I wouldn't call an AR-15 an M4 unless it was set to the fully automatic configuration. However I get the sense this "clone" term has more to do with it not being HK or being another manufacture including custom builders. But why is that? I wouldn't stop calling an AR-15 an AR-15 just because you brewed one up at home instead of buying the Colt. I understand the HK having a better value and probably better quality control just like different AR manufacturers have different quality. But why for instance is the Zenith Z-5RS called a clone? If its the lack of full auto that makes sense to me. If its the lack of HK, that doesn't.

2. I do like the idea of owning an HK brand mp5 since after all they are the original designer and manufacturer. But I'm not as much of a K fan. I prefer the full size navy configuration of the mp5. Anyone think there is a chance in the near future HK would import a full sized mp5? (i.e. SP5)? If so, do you think the clones will degrade in value? i.e. if I bought a Zenith Z-5RS now and an HK SP5 came out would lose an enormous amount of money selling it to get the HK?

Thanks guys. I know these questions involve opinions but I'd like to hear yours.
 

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I think number 1 has been discussed at great length and frankly, I agree with you, but I think the consensus is that anything specifically not made by HK proper is considered a clone. I've seen a bit of debate on gray area of HK contract stuff made in other countries, but I think even then, those are typically lumped into the clone status.

As to 2, I don't think a full size HK94 (pistol or rifle) being manufactured again would really harm the bulk of clones, as knowing HK, the prices will be in excess of $2k.

Now, for the premium clone builders that can currently charge $3k and more for their work, that might be a bit tough. It would also likely depress the price of existing HK94s, similar to what it did to the SP89s, at least somewhat. SP89s haven't dropped all the way down to the price of the new SP5k, so I imagine that will be the same as with the old HK94s (since HK will likely do the same goofiness to the new hypothetical HK94 as they did for the SP5K).
 

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I wasn't in the HK roller locked world back when you could buy 90 series guns on the shelf at your lgs. Some have debated whether to say clone or pattern guns or other names. I guess at one time you could only get genuine HK or other licensed factory guns, like the fmp, Greek, Springfield, etc... All the imports were eventually banned by name or restricted, discontinued. Then the Bailey US guns came on the scene and he started making his own parts. So you still had factory guns in circulation plus US guns, and obviously some teething issues with those US built guns. To say an HK 94 was equivalent to an SW would not be correct, thus clone, looks similar or like the real thing but not.

Of course then you had smiths making parts builds, a real 100% German build on a clone sw receiver. Clone, pattern, parts build? Whatever you want to call it.

Zenith uses the tagline "not a clone." They are Turkish military factory built guns on (older) HK tooling. They have pros and cons depending on what you want or plan to do work them. Some guns haven't been 100% but zenith seems to stand by them. Price seems to be holding steady with HK sp5k priced higher and a different allowed features.

Shockwave
 

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A friend showed me some recent news that HK is building a plant for civilian firearms in Georgia. That makes me think there would probably be a high chance of a SP5 in the future. Of course it could be a couple years from now. Who knows? Waiting is hard...

BREAKING: Heckler & Koch Building US Factory In Georgia - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog
The ONLY reason HK would build a plant here is to build and sell guns that are otherwise restricted by the import bans. It's going to be a very good day for the HK community. A very good, very expensive day.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The ONLY reason HK would build a plant here is to build and sell guns that are otherwise restricted by the import bans. It's going to be a very good day for the HK community. A very good, very expensive day.
I know makes me think maybe I should wait for an full sized mp5 pistol. But who knows when it will happen. Waiting is hard.
 

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The ONLY reason HK would build a plant here is to build and sell guns that are otherwise restricted by the import bans. It's going to be a very good day for the HK community. A very good, very expensive day.
Yes and no.

It's to put them on equal/superior footing to compete against others for US DOD and Federal contracts such as FN who are already dug in well in this space.

They know we (US .MIL) already like their stuff, and this will make them competitive.

If they continue to try and do it from overseas, they can't compete, the ability of the socialist german government to interfere with US arms procurements notwithstanding.
 

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I wouldn't stop calling an AR-15 an AR-15 just because you brewed one up at home instead of buying the Colt.
Actually, unless you're talking about an armalite model 15 it's incorrect to call anything a AR-15. Vastly superior Stoner platform rifles exist, but they are not AR-15s to anyone but the liberal press. Not only is it incorrect to call a clone a MP5, it's also incorrect to call a modified HK94, SP89 or SP5K a MP5. if it didn't come out of Oberndorf stamped MP5...it's not a MP5. I can't distill my own whisky and put it in a Glenlivet bottle and call it The Glenlivet.

So, unless you possess a SOT or are law enforcement and can get ahold of the real deal, you can't have a MP5. You can have a clone.

As far as the chances HK imports a SP5, that's anyone's guess. A couple years ago most people would have scoffed at the chances they would import the SP5K. I doubt they would impact the value of clones since they're totally different animals and cost considerably more.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Actually, unless you're talking about an armalite model 15 it's incorrect to call anything a AR-15. Vastly superior Stoner platform rifles exist, but they are not AR-15s to anyone but the liberal press. Not only is it incorrect to call a clone a MP5, it's also incorrect to call a modified HK94, SP89 or SP5K a MP5. if it didn't come out of Oberndorf stamped MP5...it's not a MP5. I can't distill my own whisky and put it in a Glenlivet bottle and call it The Glenlivet.

So, unless you possess a SOT or are law enforcement and can get ahold of the real deal, you can't have a MP5. You can have a clone.

As far as the chances HK imports a SP5, that's anyone's guess. A couple years ago most people would have scoffed at the chances they would import the SP5K. I doubt they would impact the value of clones since they're totally different animals and cost considerably more.
I have to disagree with your logic.
First, even if by law the only AR-15 is the armalite model 15, 99% of the industry and the population call a gun an AR-15 if it has the same main design as the original. Sure there may be variations in the furniture or contours of the barrels, etc. but they all operate on the same principal and have the same critical operating dimensions.

Your Glenlivet argument is not the same thing. If you distill your own Whiskey, you are the manufacturer, "Whiskey" is the "model" of liquor. Glenlivet isn't a model, its a manufacturer or brand. I see guns similarly. AR-15 is the "model" of "firearm". Even if the legal definition is specific saying the model number belongs to a manufacturer, the majority doesn't live by that. I understand legal implications of reusing a model number but I'm not saying its "legally" an AR-15 or MP5, but rather how the model of firearm is referred to.

Seems like splitting hairs to say an AR-15 is only an AR-15 if it is the original Armalite model. That's nuts. So what my Colt LE6920 is just a "clone"? I mean the 1911 is a great example too. Would you tell a Kimber owner, that's not a 1911, its a clone. No one refers to their 1911's or AR-15's from other vendors as clones. In fact if you did most people would think you're being weird. Yet the opposite is true with the mp5.

Now, I can better understand the mp5 more being considered a clone due to the functionality being changed to make it semi auto because once you do that you've changed the main features of the original firearm which are its full auto operation. Although I would still consider it a semi auto mp5. I guess I can understand it being considered a clone if its made from parts. But if you buy a Dakota Tactical D-54N, it still should in my mind be considered a semi auto MP5. The manufacturer is Dakota Tactical. The designer is HK. Idk I guess no one will ever agree on this, but I feel like its degrading to people who own "clones' to call them that. Its hard to spend $3k on a gun then have someone tell you, that's not real, that's a clone. But heck if its dimensions and functions are the same (minus the full auto functional components), shouldn't it effectively be called an mp5? Shouldn't you be able to feel the satisfaction of owning an iconic firearm. Clone just has such a negative implication in my mind. It seems to create a feeling that the gun is not legit. Like its a phony. Sure its a phony if its trying to pass off as being made by HK, but if its just trying to pass of as a semi auto mp5, what's wrong with that?
 

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I have to disagree with your logic.
First, even if by law the only AR-15 is the armalite model 15, 99% of the industry and the population call a gun an AR-15 if it has the same main design as the original. Sure there may be variations in the furniture or contours of the barrels, etc. but they all operate on the same principal and have the same critical operating dimensions.
Except that an AR-15 is a specific model from a specific manufacturer. It's like calling all tissues "Kleenex". It's called a proprietary eponym. Regardless of who you perceive to be calling their rifle an AR-15, unless they work for Armalite they are incorrect.

I'm not going to touch the Kimber business because Kimber is garbage.

Its hard to spend $3k on a gun then have someone tell you, that's not real, that's a clone. But heck if its dimensions and functions are the same (minus the full auto functional components), shouldn't it effectively be the same?
The perception that 'clone' is a derogatory term is yours. If it offends you to spend money on a clone then don't I guess. I'm not saying they suck, only that they're not MP5s. Like I said in my first post, many of the current Stoner platform rifles on the market are vastly superior to the original AR-15. (I wouldn't say that about any guns of the clone market but they're not necessarily inferior).

I guess it's a semantic argument. Call them whatever pleases you. Just don't be surprised when someone says "that's not an MP5".
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Except that an AR-15 is a specific model from a specific manufacturer. It's like calling all tissues "Kleenex". It's called a proprietary eponym. Regardless of who you perceive to be calling their rifle an AR-15, unless they work for Armalite they are incorrect.

I'm not going to touch the Kimber business because Kimber is garbage.



The perception that 'clone' is a derogatory term is yours. If it offends you to spend money on a clone then don't I guess. I'm not saying they suck, only that they're not MP5s. Like I said in my first post, many of the current Stoner platform rifles on the market are vastly superior to the original AR-15. (I wouldn't say that about any guns of the clone market but they're not necessarily inferior).

I guess it's a semantic argument. Call them whatever pleases you. Just don't be surprised when someone says "that's not an MP5".
Yeah I guess I see your point. I still think it creates an illusion that your gun is inferior but maybe like you say that is just my own illusion.
And I wasn't trying to say Kimbers are great or poor with that illustration. I just pulled a well known 1911 manufacturer out of a hat and used it as an example. My 1911 was put together by my uncle and his friend who was a talented pistol smith. I guess its not technically a "1911" by the definition, but heck I will always think of it as that. And I don't ever see myself running into someone who says "that's not a 1911". I guess that's what bothers me about the mp5 clone issue. It seems to be an exception. If I call my 1911 a 1911 and my AR and AR-15, no one cares. But if I call an mp5 clone an mp5 everyone gets all touchy. Why the difference?
 

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Yeah I guess I see your point. I still think it creates an illusion that your gun is inferior but maybe like you say that is just my own illusion.
And I wasn't trying to say Kimbers are great or poor with that illustration. I just pulled a well known 1911 manufacturer out of a hat and used it as an example. My 1911 was put together by my uncle and his friend who was a talented pistol smith. I guess its not technically a "1911" by the definition, but heck I will always think of it as that. And I don't ever see myself running into someone who says "that's not a 1911". I guess that's what bothers me about the mp5 clone issue. It seems to be an exception. If I call my 1911 a 1911 and my AR and AR-15, no one cares. But if I call an mp5 clone an mp5 everyone gets all touchy. Why the difference?
I don't know, a more dedicated fan base of more a niche weapon I suppose. Perhaps it's a matter of prevalence. Contrast the number of 'M1911's and 'AR's in the US and with the much, much lower number of MP5 clones let alone real MP5s. I know a lot of guys who aren't really gun guys but they own an 'AR' and would say they own an 'AR' when it's really a Colt or S/W or whatever and don't even know what it means really. It's black and semi-auto and looks the part.
 

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Except that an AR-15 is a specific model from a specific manufacturer. It's like calling all tissues "Kleenex". It's called a proprietary eponym. Regardless of who you perceive to be calling their rifle an AR-15, unless they work for Armalite they are incorrect.

I'm not going to touch the Kimber business because Kimber is garbage.



The perception that 'clone' is a derogatory term is yours. If it offends you to spend money on a clone then don't I guess. I'm not saying they suck, only that they're not MP5s. Like I said in my first post, many of the current Stoner platform rifles on the market are vastly superior to the original AR-15. (I wouldn't say that about any guns of the clone market but they're not necessarily inferior).

I guess it's a semantic argument. Call them whatever pleases you. Just don't be surprised when someone says "that's not an MP5".
Colt purchased the rights to the AR-15 and aside from prototypes, Armalite did not produce the AR-15. Colt AR-15s are not clones. I have a Colt model 614 factory fullauto. It is marked "AR-15 model 614". That is most definitely not a clone.
 

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If you look at the MKEK website, you'll see the military versions of the Zenith guns all still have the standard HK model designations and are authorized by HK to do so. Likewise, HK parts are interchangeable with MKE guns and the MKEs have seen military service across the world.

So yes, they are "real" MP5s. What they AREN'T are Heckler and Koch MP5s.

Don't fool yoursef into thinking they are equal in quality to what HK produces though, because they aren't... MKE quality control is lacking and the internals especially are rough compared to their HK counterparts.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
If you look at the MKEK website, you'll see the military versions of the Zenith guns all still have the standard HK model designations and are authorized by HK to do so. Likewise, HK parts are interchangeable with MKE guns and the MKEs have seen military service across the world.

So yes, they are "real" MP5s. What they AREN'T are Heckler and Koch MP5s.

Don't fool yoursef into thinking they are equal in quality to what HK produces though, because they aren't... MKE quality control is lacking and the internals especially are rough compared to their HK counterparts.
Yeah this makes sense to me. Its still a real mp5, its just not as high of quality or having as great of quality control as the German counterpart and that makes sense. 1911's a great example of this as some are built with a really good fit and others are pretty rough
 

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Colt purchased the rights to the AR-15 and aside from prototypes, Armalite did not produce the AR-15. Colt AR-15s are not clones. I have a Colt model 614 factory fullauto. It is marked "AR-15 model 614". That is most definitely not a clone.
I also own a Colt 6933 (SBR) that is marked M4...it is semiauto .
On the subject of HK US factory built weapons...
My concern would HK cheapen the guns built in USA .
Look at what SIG did to the 550 series...
 

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I also own a Colt 6933 (SBR) that is marked M4...it is semiauto .
On the subject of HK US factory built weapons...
My concern would HK cheapen the guns built in USA .
Look at what SIG did to the 550 series...
HK didn't hire the guy who ran Kimber into the ground (ron cohen - no relation to the political Ron Cohen) to head their US operations

That is a promising start already.
 
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