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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why would the government legislate that a item like a forward handle on a pistol (example SP89 with forward handle) require the AOW $5 tax.

How does this make a semi-auto like the SP89 more dangerous?

Just wondered what you guys think about that question.
 

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There is no rational explanation. Such restrictions are pushed by people who just do not like guns and want to control and restrict guns as much as possible. Look at Assault Weapon Ban (1994-2004). Most of it are cosmetic features that were making guns illegal. Any so called assult rifle is no more dangerous that any other firearm.
 

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Good points sasha.

I've seen it stated in the CFR that pistols were, "made to be shot with one hand"! Obviously, a foregrip allows two-handed shooting -that's their "rationale" for the AOW reg. Can you believe such nonsense?

:rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have a SBR SP89 clone that I shoot either PDW or K style since I paid the 200 dollar tax.

Let me say that the forward grip does nothing or I should say very little for me as far as accuracy. The full auto may be a different story though.

How do you guys that own full auto MP5k's shoot with it set to auto? Does that grip help a lot?
 

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MP5K grip...

The forward MP5K grip helps settle the gun into your shoulder better...

Other than that, the foregrip does nothing special other than balance the weapon...
 

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I have a SBR SP89 clone that I shoot either PDW or K style since I paid the 200 dollar tax.

Let me say that the forward grip does nothing or I should say very little for me as far as accuracy. The full auto may be a different story though.

How do you guys that own full auto MP5k's shoot with it set to auto? Does that grip help a lot?
I have two BW89's--both with full-auto packs. One wears the K-grip and the other does not. It's all just preference. I actually prefer the K gun without the K-grip. And that's whether I'm firing full-auto or semi-auto.
 

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it actually is quite rational to me when viewed from a legal standpoint versus a functional standpoint. when in the legal arena, points of law require legal definitions:

Title 1 = pistol (handheld, designed to be fired one handed),
rifle (16"+ barrel)
shotgun (18"+ barrel)

followed by....

Title 2 = short-barrel rifle (< 16" bbl),
short-barrel shotgun (< 18" bbl),
destructive device (> .5" bore, et al)
AOW (any firearm not covered in the above legal definitions)

The K grip on a pistol is no longer a pistol as it is designed to be fired two handed, ergo......

Litmus test thus prevails: it is not a rifle, not a shotgun, not a SB rifle, not a SB shotgun, not a DD..... thus is an AOW, the catch all safety net.
 

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Keep in mind, unless you're transferring it from a Class II manufacturer, there's no reason to register it as an AOW as you're paying a $200 tax. You might as well SBR it so that if you want you can slap a stock on it and turn it into a K clone.

ETA: Did HK ever release an SP89 as an AOW with the fore grip? I was under the impression that the SP89 was only a pistol. In that case, there shouldn't be any true SP89 AOW's on the market, and those that are, were either NFA'd by Class II's, or some poor schmuck payed $200 for a half-useful stamp.
 

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You are correct, Johnnyc.

Although there are some true Factory SBRs that came in PDW configuration
 

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Something to keep in mind, once an NFA weapon, always an NFA weapon. If you register that SBR, the ATF treats it as an SBR forever. You can't remove the "evil" feature of a handgrip and then sell the gun at a show to just anyone. Of course, possession of an unregistered NFA firearm is punishable by up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 fine.
 

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Something to keep in mind, once an NFA weapon, always an NFA weapon. If you register that SBR, the ATF treats it as an SBR forever. You can't remove the "evil" feature of a handgrip and then sell the gun at a show to just anyone. Of course, possession of an unregistered NFA firearm is punishable by up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 fine.
You can take items off of the registry, then you can transfer as you wish.
 

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Something to keep in mind, once an NFA weapon, always an NFA weapon. If you register that SBR, the ATF treats it as an SBR forever. You can't remove the "evil" feature of a handgrip and then sell the gun at a show to just anyone. Of course, possession of an unregistered NFA firearm is punishable by up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 fine.
Yes and no. You can request to have it removed from the NFA registry, thus forfeiting its Ttile 2 status and your $200 tax stamp. Once you receive a letter back from the ATF to this fact, you can transfer the firearm as any Title 1 firearm.
 

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Why would the government legislate that a item like a forward handle on a pistol (example SP89 with forward handle) require the AOW $5 tax.

How does this make a semi-auto like the SP89 more dangerous?

Just wondered what you guys think about that question.
Has nothing to do with "dangerous". The issue is, is handgun is designed to be fired with one hand; once you put a fore-grip on it, it no longer meets that definition and becomes "something else":

(29) The term ``handgun'' means--
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held
and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in
subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
 

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Ok, may be it has nothing to do with "dangerous". But why, then the fact that you added a foregrip makes it necessary to register firearm with Federal agency and pay hefty $200 fee? Does it make sense? Does this requirement makes common sense? Of course not. I can understand requiring to register with ATF machine guns since the weapon is much more potent with hugh rate of fire. Or, may be silencers since it can be used to murder without making noise. But, how SBRs and AOW (front grip specifically) fits with the rest?
 

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Ok, may be it has nothing to do with "dangerous". But why, then the fact that you added a foregrip makes it necessary to register firearm with Federal agency and pay hefty $200 fee? Does it make sense? Does this requirement makes common sense? Of course not. I can understand requiring to register with ATF machine guns since the weapon is much more potent with hugh rate of fire. Or, may be silencers since it can be used to murder without making noise. But, how SBRs and AOW (front grip specifically) fits with the rest?
SBR argument is actually semi valid if you take it from their f-ed up point of view. Their take on it is a short enough rifle can be concealed on a person and have much more firepower than a common handgun.

Their fear is some keanu reeves in a trenchcoat walking into a shopping mall and blowing everyone away.
 

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Even SBR argument would not withstand any criticism. They want you to register and pay 200 bucks if you want to attach stock to your pistol. How this makes your firearm more powerful? And, on the other hand you can buy a pistol based on rifle design (no stock and barrel less than 16") chambered for .308 Winchester (extremely powerful). And since this is a pistol, you do not have to register it with ATF. Why not? It is almost as powerful as a rifle oor SBR that are based on the same design. It is all f---d up.
 

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What kills me about the whole AOW argument over the SP89 and the second grip is that if you look at the definition of what is an AOW, then you see that by the ATFE's very own definition the SP89 CANNOT be an AOW. It states, if you will allow a paraphrase, that an AOW is a pistol or revolver with a smooth bore that can fire a shotgun shell...and shall not include a pistol or revolver with a rifled bore: TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53
INTERNAL REVENUE CODE 5845(e)

And yet the ATFE rules that the second grip on a firearm that specifically is excluded from being an AOW IS and AOW.
Walks away scratching head and mumbling.
 

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What kills me about the whole AOW argument over the SP89 and the second grip is that if you look at the definition of what is an AOW, then you see that by the ATFE's very own definition the SP89 CANNOT be an AOW. It states, if you will allow a paraphrase, that an AOW is a pistol or revolver with a smooth bore that can fire a shotgun shell...and shall not include a pistol or revolver with a rifled bore: TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53
INTERNAL REVENUE CODE 5845(e)

And yet the ATFE rules that the second grip on a firearm that specifically is excluded from being an AOW IS and AOW.
Walks away scratching head and mumbling.

I have never understood that either.
 

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Isn't BATFE must follow the law? And this means that they should not disallow anything unless specifically prohibited by law? Previous example by Big Bore is a good one. How about this: Over 20 years ago Congress outlawed manufacture and importation of machine guns for sale to civilians. They never outlawed machine guns that person can built for his/her own use (not intended for sale). Nevertherless, if you try to apply using Form 1 to design and build your own machine gun, BATFE will not approve despite the fact that this is not prohibited by law. This is not right. This means that someone takes law in his/her own hands with impunity.
 

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the thing that gets me, is that you can grap the magazine with your non-firing hand and it does the exact same thing as a forward grip, except it's just a little further back. in fact, the straight MP-5 mags have finger grooves, now maybe they weren't meant to be a quasi-grip, but they sure work great as a grip
 
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