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The handgun section. I will move it there. This *is* an HK specific question.
Winchester Special Ammo for Mk23?
I want to ask a question about the rarity of the special military ammo made by Winchester for the first batch of silenced Navy HK SOCOM pistols, but I don't know which section to pst my query. Which would be the appropriate area to ask this?
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Oh man, memories....
OK, back in the day, there was this group of guys on base that worked in this little shop across from ANGLICO onboard Lejeune. It was adjacent to the Recon boys, but these guys were moustachioed in such a way that made the Sergeants Major cringe, and they had a panache for wearing short blue shorts...
Anyway, they had cool toys. I never saw a MK23, but they had plenty of cool stuff. I did see a bunch of USP Compact .45's and a few 1911's that would make you cry. Well, it seems that most of the time they were training with he Recon guys, and the rest of the time they went to the range. It's a haul out to Stone's Bay from Main Side, but well worth the trip if they come asking. Keep in mind, these guys were like rock stars to all of us, especially this very moto 19-year-old Lance Corporal that looks and awful lot like a skinny me. So to the point of this... sorry, a flood of memories I have not thought about in years.
There were 2 kinds. Winchester made a 185gr .45 +P round with a truncated nose like a typical .40 round. I'd never seen anything like it. It came in very nondescript plain white box with the Winchester logo, off white styrofoam inset, 50 rounds per box. It has a red lacquer-like substance around the primer cap. The data on the side of the box indicated a muzzle velocity of ~1250fps. How do I recall this so well, you ask? They gave me an ammo can full. Years later I was trolling a Sportsman's Guide catalog (well before I started going on the internet everyday, circa 1999-2000) and saw what I couldn't believe. The same dang ammo! It was even advertised as Navy SEAL ammo!! or some such crap. I called and ordered all I could afford, which was like $16 for a 50rd box, and back then I think crapping $100 was tough. Myself and everyone I shot with marveled at this stuff. The muzzle flash was so purely white and sharp was not the word for the report. It burned cleaner than anything I have seen even since. Stuff was accurate as hell. Anyway, I didn't know about lot numbers and all that crap back then so I never kept a box flap. I simply figured I could just call around and find it, but alas since that ammo can and those 10 boxes were fried, I have never seen it again. Believe me, I have tried. I have called Winchester I do not know how many times trying to describe this stuff to no avail. I quit chasing that elephant 10 years ago I think.
And the other kind.. since it came up. I never saw any, but according to chit-chat among myself and the aforementioned gentlemen with whom I was honored to shoot the +P stuff in all its awesomeness couldn't (or they wouldn't, whatever) be shot suppressed due to the muzzle velocity, so Winchester made a SECOND bullet identical to these only they were not +P which got the velocity under the speed of sound. Spied crunched in the bottom of a range bag, which is how this convo came up, was a box identical to the one described with the exception of a large SP in bold letters on the end flap and no +P, of course.
I do not know if this is the ammo in question, but it sounds like it. Way too coincidental. Sorry for the long winded answer, but I really enjoyed that time in my life, and that ammo!! Hopefully, you enjoyed reading it. Ah ANGLICO, how I miss thee...
OK, back in the day, there was this group of guys on base that worked in this little shop across from ANGLICO onboard Lejeune. It was adjacent to the Recon boys, but these guys were moustachioed in such a way that made the Sergeants Major cringe, and they had a panache for wearing short blue shorts...
Anyway, they had cool toys. I never saw a MK23, but they had plenty of cool stuff. I did see a bunch of USP Compact .45's and a few 1911's that would make you cry. Well, it seems that most of the time they were training with he Recon guys, and the rest of the time they went to the range. It's a haul out to Stone's Bay from Main Side, but well worth the trip if they come asking. Keep in mind, these guys were like rock stars to all of us, especially this very moto 19-year-old Lance Corporal that looks and awful lot like a skinny me. So to the point of this... sorry, a flood of memories I have not thought about in years.
There were 2 kinds. Winchester made a 185gr .45 +P round with a truncated nose like a typical .40 round. I'd never seen anything like it. It came in very nondescript plain white box with the Winchester logo, off white styrofoam inset, 50 rounds per box. It has a red lacquer-like substance around the primer cap. The data on the side of the box indicated a muzzle velocity of ~1250fps. How do I recall this so well, you ask? They gave me an ammo can full. Years later I was trolling a Sportsman's Guide catalog (well before I started going on the internet everyday, circa 1999-2000) and saw what I couldn't believe. The same dang ammo! It was even advertised as Navy SEAL ammo!! or some such crap. I called and ordered all I could afford, which was like $16 for a 50rd box, and back then I think crapping $100 was tough. Myself and everyone I shot with marveled at this stuff. The muzzle flash was so purely white and sharp was not the word for the report. It burned cleaner than anything I have seen even since. Stuff was accurate as hell. Anyway, I didn't know about lot numbers and all that crap back then so I never kept a box flap. I simply figured I could just call around and find it, but alas since that ammo can and those 10 boxes were fried, I have never seen it again. Believe me, I have tried. I have called Winchester I do not know how many times trying to describe this stuff to no avail. I quit chasing that elephant 10 years ago I think.
And the other kind.. since it came up. I never saw any, but according to chit-chat among myself and the aforementioned gentlemen with whom I was honored to shoot the +P stuff in all its awesomeness couldn't (or they wouldn't, whatever) be shot suppressed due to the muzzle velocity, so Winchester made a SECOND bullet identical to these only they were not +P which got the velocity under the speed of sound. Spied crunched in the bottom of a range bag, which is how this convo came up, was a box identical to the one described with the exception of a large SP in bold letters on the end flap and no +P, of course.
I do not know if this is the ammo in question, but it sounds like it. Way too coincidental. Sorry for the long winded answer, but I really enjoyed that time in my life, and that ammo!! Hopefully, you enjoyed reading it. Ah ANGLICO, how I miss thee...
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I do. In the original JSOR (Joint Special Operations Requirements) document for the OHWS (Offensive Handgun Weapon System) SOCOM wanted a 4 component system. .45 ACP Handgun (later to be called the MK23 MOD 1), Laser Aiming Module (LAM), signature suppressor and the forth component most don't know about an enhanced round of .45 ACP HP ammo to be used in CT operations. The users wanted a 230 grain +P+ round with high performance expanding projectile. Winchester built an extremely nasty (black colored) version of the "Black Talon" round built to +P velocities in the ".45 Super" range as I recall (it's been a while). There was no SAAMI spec for +P+ .45 ACP so they we working well above known safe limits. I recall the original bullet weight was 230 grains and it smoked, and the overbuilt MK23 loved it! In the end no ammo maker would make the ammunition for SOCOM as they feared it would be fired in a handgun not rated for it - and most were not. The Navy did purchase a qty of Talon .45 ACP +P ammo later to be called "SXT" but I don't recall the nomenclature.
Update: Did a bit of digging in the ammo stash - I knew there was more to the answer. Olin (Winchester) also loaded a 185 gr +P round for the MK23 with a Truncated Cone (flat point FMJ basically) projectile. This was for use for non-CT (counter terrorist) operations. The US DoD does not allow hollow point ammo for non-CT operations as per the Hague convention. We can JDAM the bad guys but not shoot thenm with true hollow point .45's. The ammo comes in a white Olin box - 50 rounds per box.
G3Kurz
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Is this what you boys are talking about? I picked some up in 1999 when I got my USP Compact 45. The gun shop owner said it was Naval Special Warfare contract overrun.
At the time, I was carrying Remington Golden Saber 185gr +P in my USP Compact 45 and thought this would be good training ammo. It was HOT; you could feel it in the USP Compact.
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How much?!?! and yes... hold that pic up. I NEED that lot number.![]()
Is this what you boys are talking about? I picked some up in 1999 when I got my USP Compact 45. The gun shop owner said it was Naval Special Warfare contract overrun.
At the time, I was carrying Remington Golden Saber 185gr +P in my USP Compact 45 and thought this would be good training ammo. It was HOT; you could feel it in the USP Compact.
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I saw a single box of the specialized Mk23 ammo once. To me, the bullet looked more like a Semi Wadcutter, as there was a small ridge at the base of the truncated cone. I don't remember all the markings, but it was a typical military style box of brown cardboard and black block lettering. Two markings stuck out to me, and have stuck in my memory: nickel core and something along the lines of "for use in Mk23 SOCom pistol only". Though, I could have swore it said 230gr, too.
Highly doubt this was military ammo. "Open tip" bullets are ok and are used. However - anything which is clearly JHP is a no-no in the military. Hague convention and so on. The USMC has an interesting article on this: Corps to use more lethal ammo in Afghanistan - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps TimesG3Kurtz & NCDevilDog
I have some ammo I purchased years ago and the guy said it was for the SOCOM .45 Here are some pics of the box and the ammo. To me
it looks like Black Talon stuff.
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I would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks
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BRAVO HKChuck!
That is the ammo I was referring to in my earlier post. And yes they are Black Talons (SXT's in a kinder more gentle description) and yes this round was made specifically for the MK23.
HP and JHP ammo CAN in fact be used by select military organizations for use in counter terrorism operations. It is being done each and every day. At least in the eyes of the US the Hague convention does not apply to CT operations. There are numerous JHP rounds in the US and NATO inventory that are used by CT forces for that purpose. Conventional forces cannot employ them in conventional combat.
G3Kurz
That is the ammo I was referring to in my earlier post. And yes they are Black Talons (SXT's in a kinder more gentle description) and yes this round was made specifically for the MK23.
HP and JHP ammo CAN in fact be used by select military organizations for use in counter terrorism operations. It is being done each and every day. At least in the eyes of the US the Hague convention does not apply to CT operations. There are numerous JHP rounds in the US and NATO inventory that are used by CT forces for that purpose. Conventional forces cannot employ them in conventional combat.
G3Kurz
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I only have that half box left. It is really not worth me selling. Lot number is Q4310.
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1200 something I think.. it reminded me of Cor-Bon 165, only not as much pow.
Like G3 said, that's the stuff. I PERSONALLY have never seen them before; I only saw the truncated stuff and got some years later like I said. At some point I quit being surprised at anything that comes from an operators kit bag.G3Kurtz & NCDevilDog
I have some ammo I purchased years ago and the guy said it was for the SOCOM .45 Here are some pics of the box and the ammo. To me
it looks like Black Talon stuff.
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I would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks
Thanks! I will see what i can find. I can't seem to find a number for the ammo portion of Winchester...
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Hey azimuth , this can be some of your reloads this winter .....
I'm warming up the reloading equipment right now.... :biggrin: I did play around with subsonic loads to find the quietest recipe that would function reliably. I had some that would extract and dump the casings at my feet. They are real quiet, but the recipe varies depending on the gun I use them in.
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