[Sirrisdesign]

For anyone considering these, I bought one off GB a while back that had a converted German lower with a Gideon upper & bolt group. This was the 45 acp upper. First issue right off the bat, the firing pin retaining pin in the side of the bolt was fused into place. This left the factory this way. Second issue, FTE was non stop issue with casings either coming out with a big dent in the rim or getting stuck in the trunnion. The gun went back not once but 3 times after a supremely difficult back & forth with Omegas beyond lackluster customer support. First to replace the bolt, which only fixed the retaining pin issue. Then to cut a fix into the upper, whatever that entailed. Did nothing. Finally they replaced the entire upper. That solved the issue.

Fast forward two months & I bought a new 9mm Gideon kit (because ya know, I learned nothing from the first experience) & low & behold right out of the gate, fused retaining pin in the bolt. Got bolt swapped, didn’t bother to assemble it to test fire. Just sold it off & moved on with my day. Bottom line, unless you really wanna gamble, the GS is not worth the issues. Unless you just really can’t be bothered with the USC conversion, cost & tax stamp, which frankly was the only reason I went through this **** show.

 

[Eticket1337]

Thank you for your insights

 

[Sirrisdesign]

Thank you for your insights

I’m not one to normally complain either but this was 3 months of shipping & communication headaches with their support staff. I actually handed it off to my gunsmith to play middleman I was getting so irate about it.

 

[Twinsen]

Thanks. You might save someone a lot of frustration.

 

[6Rstar]

There ain't nothing like the real thing baby....

Sorry for your issues and thanks for sharing them. I bought a USC a while back and started assembling build parts and then i saw the shadow and wondered if it was going to make the UMP builds not worth it but after hearing a ton if horror stories I still think building is the way to go.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[RoundelNut599]

I had a similar experience with a GS 45 and Omega's service. Went back and forth with them over several months including shipping the gun back and forth and finally they sent me a completely new firearm with zero issues. By then I had a bad taste in my mouth from the experience even though they took care of it in the end. Bought a USC, had it converted by Tommy and never looked back. From what I have seen I was in the minority as far as having issues with the GS, but that's my luck.

 

[Lumbergh]

Stories like this lead me to the conclusion that if I were to get into the UMP game, I would just spend the money and do it right the first time.

Buy a police trade UMP kit and one of Toms UMP receivers.

Definitely more expensive, but it will be built with German parts and Toms quality + potential CS.

The 850 Omega uppers+HKP lowers always seem cheap to get into the game, but I have no faith in anything Omega.

YMMV.

 

[GunCalNutz]

Wow thanks for the insight.

 

[omega21]

@Sirrisdesign - thanks for the input. I was considering that 9mm one that another member was selling and ended up by the skin of my teeth ordering a new USC which is now en route to @AviatorDave for conversion. So this type of feedback is helpful because I wasn't sure I made the right call.

I'll comment on conversions of USCs:

45 ACP
You don't have to do a Tom Bostic fuse job here. It's the more expensive way to go. I'm going the stock block B route and here are my costs:

Convert UMP lower
Machine Front hooks of the UMP lower to fit USC upper $40
Recut Selector for use with USC internals $30
Swap parts from USC lower to UMP lower $20
Fill Release Lever Cavity $30 (not required, but given ATF, highly suggested)
Sub-Total: $120

Convert Upper
Upper Receiver Mag Opening to accept UMP mags $25
Vent Slots $85 - this is aesthetic on a semi-auto gun. Authentic UMP "look" but $85 you can save by skipping it.
Stock Block: $165 new or around $100 used
UMP stock: ~$150 (seen them for much less and a bit more)
Sub-Total: $425 (new stock block)

And we are done! You now have a UMP with 16" barrel for $545

SBR it
HDPS 7" barrel $325 (less for GSG barrel, more for German UMP take off barrel). You can also cut your own USC barrel down and thread it for $75.
Tax stamp $200
Sub-Total: $275-$525 ($525 for HDPS barrel)

Total cost: $820 (reuse your USC barrel) to $1070 (HDPS barrel) including tax stamp to SBR

Obviously the cost of the USC itself factors in to all of the above, but remember, you can also sell some of the USC leftover parts to offset costs of conversion. This seems imminently reasonable to me. Doing a fuse job adds cost and If you can see the breakdown for that here: Tommy Built Tactical | USC to UMP Conversion


9MM
Buy a 9mm UMP kit
I was late to the game (2020) so could only find kits at @HKParts.net setting me back $4,000 for a well used kit
Sub-Total: $4,000

Convert UMP lower
Same as above
Sub-Total: $120

Convert Upper
Upper Receiver Mag Opening to accept UMP mags $25
Vent Slots $85 - this is aesthetic on a semi-auto gun. Authentic UMP "look" but $85 you can save by skipping it.
UMP stock: ~$150 (seen them for much less and a bit more)
Machine UMP bolt to fit USC receiver, cold blue machined area $45 at TBT $95 at AviatorDave
Not sure if you can do a stock block conversion for 9mm but I went with a fuse job from Tommy and that was another $400. If you can do a stock block you drop the $400 to $165 for a new stock block B,
Sub-Total: $470 (new stock block, bolt work by TBT) to $705 for a TB fuse job

SBR it
Barrel already comes with UMP kit so $0 new cost
Tax stamp $200
Sub-Total: $200

Total cost: $5025 (fuse job) a little less if you can use a stock block

Again, the cost of the USC itself factors in to all of the above. @Lumbergh , unlike the 45 conversion, this seems imminently expensive to me (I sold several guns to fund it). So while I endorse your comment above of "I would just spend the money and do it right the first time." I think for some folks that's harder to swing. Had I not already been at the tail end of this process, I would have 100% scooped up that 9mm Omega that was/is selling here and never looked back... until I had issues as described by @Sirrisdesign

 

[JohnnyBoi]

Never bet on Bailey.

 

[Lumbergh]

@ omega21:

I was only thinking about the .45 UMP version, I get that the 9mm UMP stuff is crazy expensive.

Apologies if I wasn't clear, I was merely "talking out loud" about how I might consider the UMP game @ the .45 level.

Was thinking about doing a UMP clone last summer, and police kits in .45 were about $1500 + the TBT UMP receiver @ $625-650ish. Plus some misc parts and the $200 Form1.

So I had it ball parked @ about $2400 to get one in .45.

And then I thought about how much I don't really enjoy my SBR CZ Scorpion Evo3 in 9mm, so snappy and relatively harsh for a 9mm.

So I decided to skip the UMP for now.

(I've seen the write-ups about guys getting the GS/Omega UMP clone all in about $1400. And it sounds tempting, until you read all of the horror stories about the all too many unhappy owners)

 

[Sirrisdesign]

@Sirrisdesign - thanks for the input. I was considering that 9mm one that another member was selling and ended up by the skin of my teeth ordering a new USC which is now en route to @AviatorDave for conversion. So this type of feedback is helpful because I wasn't sure I made the right call.

I'll comment on conversions of USCs:

45 ACP
You don't have to do a Tom Bostic fuse job here. It's the more expensive way to go. I'm going the stock block B route and here are my costs:

Convert UMP lower
Machine Front hooks of the UMP lower to fit USC upper $40
Recut Selector for use with USC internals $30
Swap parts from USC lower to UMP lower $20
Fill Release Lever Cavity $30 (not required, but given ATF, highly suggested)
Sub-Total: $120

Convert Upper
Upper Receiver Mag Opening to accept UMP mags $25
Vent Slots $85 - this is aesthetic on a semi-auto gun. Authentic UMP "look" but $85 you can save by skipping it.
Stock Block: $165 new or around $100 used
UMP stock: ~$150 (seen them for much less and a bit more)
Sub-Total: $425 (new stock block)

And we are done! You now have a UMP with 16" barrel for $545

SBR it
HDPS 7" barrel $325 (less for GSG barrel, more for German UMP take off barrel). You can also cut your own USC barrel down and thread it for $75.
Tax stamp $200
Sub-Total: $275-$525 ($525 for HDPS barrel)

Total cost: $820 (reuse your USC barrel) to $1070 (HDPS barrel) including tax stamp to SBR

Obviously the cost of the USC itself factors in to all of the above, but remember, you can also sell some of the USC leftover parts to offset costs of conversion. This seems imminently reasonable to me. Doing a fuse job adds cost and If you can see the breakdown for that here: Tommy Built Tactical | USC to UMP Conversion


9MM
Buy a 9mm UMP kit
I was late to the game (2020) so could only find kits at @HKParts.net setting me back $4,000 for a well used kit
Sub-Total: $4,000

Convert UMP lower
Same as above
Sub-Total: $120

Convert Upper
Upper Receiver Mag Opening to accept UMP mags $25
Vent Slots $85 - this is aesthetic on a semi-auto gun. Authentic UMP "look" but $85 you can save by skipping it.
UMP stock: ~$150 (seen them for much less and a bit more)
Machine UMP bolt to fit USC receiver, cold blue machined area $45 at TBT $95 at AviatorDave
Not sure if you can do a stock block conversion for 9mm but I went with a fuse job from Tommy and that was another $400. If you can do a stock block you drop the $400 to $165 for a new stock block B,
Sub-Total: $470 (new stock block, bolt work by TBT) to $705 for a TB fuse job

SBR it
Barrel already comes with UMP kit so $0 new cost
Tax stamp $200
Sub-Total: $200

Total cost: $5025 (fuse job) a little less if you can use a stock block

Again, the cost of the USC itself factors in to all of the above. @Lumbergh , unlike the 45 conversion, this seems imminently expensive to me (I sold several guns to fund it). So while I endorse your comment above of "I would just spend the money and do it right the first time." I think for some folks that's harder to swing. Had I not already been at the tail end of this process, I would have 100% scooped up that 9mm Omega that was/is selling here and never looked back... until I had issues as described by @Sirrisdesign

I lack the USC unfortunately. Truth be told, if I got one I'd probably keep it stock. Now that I have the functioning GS I don't want to be married to yet another SBR. I have enough of those.

 

[Gatsby177]

For anyone considering these, I bought one off GB a while back that had a converted German lower with a Gideon upper & bolt group. This was the 45 acp upper. First issue right off the bat, the firing pin retaining pin in the side of the bolt was fused into place. This left the factory this way. Second issue, FTE was non stop issue with casings either coming out with a big dent in the rim or getting stuck in the trunnion. The gun went back not once but 3 times after a supremely difficult back & forth with Omegas beyond lackluster customer support. First to replace the bolt, which only fixed the retaining pin issue. Then to cut a fix into the upper, whatever that entailed. Did nothing. Finally they replaced the entire upper. That solved the issue.

Fast forward two months & I bought a new 9mm Gideon kit (because ya know, I learned nothing from the first experience) & low & behold right out of the gate, fused retaining pin in the bolt. Got bolt swapped, didn’t bother to assemble it to test fire. Just sold it off & moved on with my day. Bottom line, unless you really wanna gamble, the GS is not worth the issues. Unless you just really can’t be bothered with the USC conversion, cost & tax stamp, which frankly was the only reason I went through this **** show.

You gotta be kidding me, I literally just finished building my Omega Gideon rifle over the weekend. This post got me paranoid!

Based on first impressions, the polymer used by Omega is obviously nowhere near the same as HK. The HK polymer just feels more robust. No issues with handling the rifle and I haven't even gotten my mags yet, so I am not sure if I will get any FTE or FTFs. Will update asap. The weight of this thing is amazing and I plan on shooting it once I can get some 45 ACP. It was definitely an impulse buy for me and ever since joining this forum I grown interested in HK platforms.

My personal gripes with it: the quick swap barrel push pin is ridiculous. The barrel wobbles, the pin can barely hold it in place. I had immediately replaced it with proper barrel roll pin as suggested in other threads. With the HK roll pin, barrel is solid in place. Lastly, the upper rail would dig into your thumb if you charged it. IIRC the original HK rail was not extended like the Omega, IMO the two extra segments Omega added has no value to any mounted optics.

Here's a pic of the complete rifle. (I live in CA so don't mind the grip).

 

[Sirrisdesign]

You gotta be kidding me, I literally just finished building my Omega Gideon rifle over the weekend. This post got me paranoid!

Based on first impressions, the polymer used by Omega is obviously nowhere near the same as HK. The HK polymer just feels more robust. No issues with handling the rifle and I haven't even gotten my mags yet, so I am not sure if I will get any FTE or FTFs. Will update asap. The weight of this thing is amazing and I plan on shooting it once I can get some 45 ACP. It was definitely an impulse buy for me and ever since joining this forum I grown interested in HK platforms.

My personal gripes with it: the quick swap barrel push pin is ridiculous. The barrel wobbles, the pin can barely hold it in place. I had immediately replaced it with proper barrel roll pin as suggested in other threads. With the HK roll pin, barrel is solid in place. Lastly, the upper rail would dig into your thumb if you charged it. IIRC the original HK rail was not extended like the Omega, IMO the two extra segments Omega added has no value to any mounted optics.

Here's a pic of the complete rifle. (I live in CA so don't mind the grip).

yea I mean once I got all the nonsense sorted, it works fine. But you can say that about any Bailey clone.

 

[omega21]

@ omega21:

I was only thinking about the .45 UMP version, I get that the 9mm UMP stuff is crazy expensive.

Apologies if I wasn't clear, I was merely "talking out loud" about how I might consider the UMP game @ the .45 level.

Was thinking about doing a UMP clone last summer, and police kits in .45 were about $1500 + the TBT UMP receiver @ $625-650ish. Plus some misc parts and the $200 Form1.

So I had it ball parked @ about $2400 to get one in .45.

And then I thought about how much I don't really enjoy my SBR CZ Scorpion Evo3 in 9mm, so snappy and relatively harsh for a 9mm.

So I decided to skip the UMP for now.

(I've seen the write-ups about guys getting the GS/Omega UMP clone all in about $1400. And it sounds tempting, until you read all of the horror stories about the all too many unhappy owners)

I knew where you were coming from. No worries. It's all good. I'm still hiding what I paid for the 9mm from my wife though...

 

[omega21]

Lastly, the upper rail would dig into your thumb if you charged it. IIRC the original HK rail was not extended like the Omega, IMO the two extra segments Omega added has no value to any mounted optics.

yea, if you are going to give me extra, give me a barrel pin that works. Agree with your assessment of that top rail...

 

[Artemis]

Thanks for looking out for the rest of us.

 

[Renegade]

I also have a Gideon Shadow. I bought only the stripped receiver, and stuffed it with german parts and it runs fine. A prior experience taught me not to use his internal parts.