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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ok, so what I can research from old HKpro post is that indeed there were pre ban magazines in the country.
Now my question is does anyone have some to sell? Also there doesn't seam to be a way of dating them, did they have some different manufacturing marks or lettering?

Thanks Brian......
 

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Brian,

There were very few (maybe 50-100?) of these LE (possibly MIL/"imported"), 12-round magazines that found their way into civilian hands in the mid-late 1990's!!! :biggrin:
I am aware of only 2 variations: :wink:

1. 1996/1997- left side of magazine (left- no date code; right- ".45/U.S.Pat.5.568.696"); and
2. 1998- left side of magazine (left- "id"; right- ".45"/European market).

The Mark 23 magazines during this period had the longer, 12/16" feed lips (v. the USP45 9/16" feed lips), and 15mm (seen 13mm) catch grooves. :biggrin:

Tony
 

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I have a few of them. At the time, there were several entities who were very hot trying to find out the source of these mags, one of which was HK. Also, as I understand it, there was a shipment of USP 45 mags that arrived into the country without law enforcement markings. HK caught this shipment and held it in their warehouse. Some time later, that shipment disappeared. Many were sold at a major gun show in Virginia. Needless to say, HK was not real pleased and tried hard to find out how they got out and who was selling them. There is much speculation about these mags, but I suspect they could have also been adapted to Mk23 configuration, the differences not recognizable to most.

Here's what I have observed on the Mk23 mags without LE markings (pre-ban-ish). The round number stamping for the "12" position is a different font than the other numbers. The "1" is not the same font as used for the number "10". The "2" in the number "12" is not the same font as used for the number "2". Looking at the mags, they have absolutely every characteristic of the 10 round mags. If I were to bet, I believe that someone at the factory making these mags was doing some after hours production. The similarities between the 10 and 12 round mags were overwhelming. The 12 rd mags were not some after market repro. These were built using the same macheriny and methods as the 10 round mags. Only the stamping of the "12" was the odd thing with these mags.

Brian,

There were very few (maybe 50-100?) of these LE (possibly MIL/"imported"), 12-round magazines that found their way into civilian hands in the mid-late 1990's!!! :biggrin:
I am aware of only 2 variations: :wink:

1. 1996/1997- left side of magazine (left- no date code; right- ".45/U.S.Pat.5.568.696"); and
2. 1998- left side of magazine (left- "id"; right- ".45"/European market).

The Mark 23 magazines during this period had the longer, 12/16" feed lips (v. the USP45 9/16" feed lips), and 15mm (seen 13mm) catch grooves. :biggrin:

Tony
 

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I have a few of them. At the time, there were several entities who were very hot trying to find out the source of these mags, one of which was HK. Also, as I understand it, there was a shipment of USP 45 mags that arrived into the country without law enforcement markings. HK caught this shipment and held it in their warehouse. Some time later, that shipment disappeared. Many were sold at a major gun show in Virginia. Needless to say, HK was not real pleased and tried hard to find out how they got out and who was selling them. There is much speculation about these mags, but I suspect they could have also been adapted to Mk23 configuration, the differences not recognizable to most.

Here's what I have observed on the Mk23 mags without LE markings (pre-ban-ish). The round number stamping for the "12" position is a different font than the other numbers. The "1" is not the same font as used for the number "10". The "2" in the number "12" is not the same font as used for the number "2". Looking at the mags, they have absolutely every characteristic of the 10 round mags. If I were to bet, I believe that someone at the factory making these mags was doing some after hours production. The similarities between the 10 and 12 round mags were overwhelming. The 12 rd mags were not some after market repro. These were built using the same macheriny and methods as the 10 round mags. Only the stamping of the "12" was the odd thing with these mags.
Excellent information--- the likely scenario is/are LE releases and/or GI bring backs!!! :biggrin:
I believe that G3Kurz wrote a scathing letter, in response to a 1998 SAR Review article on the 12-round magazines--- I will allow him to respond, if he so desires. :wink:
Do you have any information on about how many are in civilian hands? :confused:
How are your magazines marked--- a pic of the "12" would be awesome. :43:

Tony
 

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Yeah, Jim said the mags are either stolen US property or stolen from HK. It was a conclusion, a presumption. During the time of reported Mk23 pre ban mags, there were several prominent people who stated they were given some of these unmarked mags during a demo shoot. Different people at different demos. Too many unrelated circumstances to be just a coincidence. You could argue that the individuals giving out the mags had no authority to do so, but now you would have to take the additional step to say those people stole the property, then gave it away. Regardless, it makes little difference now and is purely academic at this point.

Excellent information--- the likely scenario is/are LE releases and/or GI bring backs!!! :biggrin:
I believe that G3Kurz wrote a scathing letter, in response to a 1998 SAR Review article on the 12-round magazines--- I will allow him to respond, if he so desires. :wink:
Do you have any information on about how many are in civilian hands? :confused:
How are your magazines marked--- a pic of the "12" would be awesome. :43:

Tony
 

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12 rd on left, 10 rd on right in all double mag pics. Oh, and one more thing, the hole for "12" is not as crisply cut as the other holes, another thing that led me to believe these were an after shift production thing.











 

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There's another possibility, but my memory could be off (this was 20 years ago). I thought the Mk23 may have been sold to US servicemen in overseas PXes (like Germany). These guns may have come with 12 rd mags. I could be completely mistaken, but for some reason I thought that was discussed years ago.
 

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12 rd on left, 10 rd on right in all double mag pics. Oh, and one more thing, the hole for "12" is not as crisply cut as the other holes, another thing that led me to believe these were an after shift production thing.











Thanks for the excellent pics--- I see what you mean about the "12" fonts--- interesting!!! :biggrin:
Those would be the correct, longer, 12/16" feed lips. :wink:

I believe that the non-date-coded magazine catch groove will measure 15mm across, while the date-coded magazine catch groove will measure 13mm across, and be slightly deeper (@1/64"), providing a more solid engagement and increased magazine performance. :43:
Have you measured the catch groove? :confused:

If not too much trouble, could you post pics of the magazine catch groove and magazine markings? :eek:

Tony
 

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There's another possibility, but my memory could be off (this was 20 years ago). I thought the Mk23 may have been sold to US servicemen in overseas PXes (like Germany). These guns may have come with 12 rd mags. I could be completely mistaken, but for some reason I thought that was discussed years ago.
Agreed--- that it what I was referring to as "imported" in Post#2!!! :biggrin:

Tony
 

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I'll drag everything back out of the safe, but it will take a few days.

Thanks for the excellent pics--- I see what you mean about the "12" fonts--- interesting!!! :biggrin:
Those would be the correct, longer, 12/16" feed lips. :wink:

I believe that the non-date-coded magazine catch groove will measure 15mm across, while the date-coded magazine catch groove will measure 13mm across, and be slightly deeper (@1/64"), providing a more solid engagement and increased magazine performance. :43:
Have you measured the catch groove? :confused:

If not too much trouble, could you post pics of the magazine catch groove and magazine markings? :eek:

Tony
 

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Tony, could you just make your comments in regular type without all the bold and colors? They are hard to read otherwise.

Preus, can you attempt to not be a douche, especially considering that Tony's contributions to this forum will never likely be exceeded by you. Thanks.
 

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It is really hard to read in blocks of text. You seem to have good comments, I just wish they were more legible without all the bold and colors.
 
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