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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
BUNDLES ARE GONE! ScubaCuba bought the 2nd to last pair and the other just sold on eBay. I went to throw out schematics, reams of paper and USPS Priority shipping receipts....and found 2 more single THUMBWHEELS that were hiding under a box.

I put them on eBay for $60 (e.b. and p.p. kill me w/fees...) but For Forum memberS the T.W. is $50 shipped. I'm done and will never make 'em again.

Thanks to ALL especially AGG, AZIMUTH, KLAUSTRAPHOBIA and the recent support from HEAVY ARTILLERY and SCUBACUBA.

Mike



Okay MARK 23 owners, here it is: Finally an “updated” modern Picatinny rail adapter that we have all been waiting/asking about for years. From the word go, we have nothing bad to say about previous products. What we do have, is an adapter that has everything I wanted as an owner and tried to include all the feedback we have heard and read on this forum and other places.



First of all, our design features Improved Fit & Finish. The “fit” to the MARK 23 is snug and slides on securely w/o marring the proprietary rail. The ‘radius’ perfectly matches the curvature of the trigger guard and was perfectly designed to match the taper at the bottom. The corners on the long axis have been rounded instead of a blocky square. Throughout testing, we could not find a single light or laser that “required” the 4th slot, so in favor of a snag-free draw or wear upon re-holstering….it was deemed unnecessary. Using MIL-STD 1913 Picatinny dimensions, the slots were measured and the modern rail has ample room to securely mount any clamp-type accessory.



Initial posts for interest were met with both enthusiasm and doubt, whereby exhaustive testing revealed many things. Yes, it is a form of plastic. The plastic used is a co-polyester that is very durable with a high impact resistance. No, we’re not going to say which one but it is a very strong design of layered, 3-d printed plastic.

It will hold a laser zero. A 5 round group of Winchester 230gr ball was fired from 25 yards with a Viridian C5L and the KAC can. Then 100 rounds Rapid Fire R.hand — L.Hand — loose grip — and sideways (read: Gangsta) into the trap. 5 more rounds were fired onto clean paper and then overlaid with no deviation. This was repeated again twice more over the course of a month with various +P loads and achieved the same result. Next came Stress-Fire. In order to determine if the plastic would suffer separation or de-lamination of the layers of the 3-D build with +P loads, the following test was devised. (Bear in mind this is a niche’ product and we tried for reasonable cost, so no….thousands of rounds were not expended).



160 rounds of +P were purchased in graduated grains. 40 rounds of BARNES TAC-XP 185gr +P, 40 rounds of HORNADY CUSTOM 200gr +P, 40 rounds of HORNADY CRITICAL DUTY 220gr +P FlexLock and finally, 40 rounds of HORNADY CUSTOM 230gr +P XTP. Two 10rd magazines were loaded with each power .45acp for 8 total mags. A Sure-Fire X400V (my heaviest device) was affixed to the standard mount. The adapter was inspected prior to firing for any defect and the test commenced. Each variation of the grain weight ammunition was fired at a target 15 yards away in 20 rd. increments 185, 200, 220, and 230 with no issues. Then the KAC can was affixed and the same was conducted again, for greater weight and different recoil characteristics on the firearm/adapter. Again, no issues were observed. We tried to “physically” snap them, like a wishbone, with thumbs and index fingers to no avail. It must be levered with great force to break it.

Now….after posting in POSSIBLE BUSINESS VENTURE, I received maybe 10 responses of “interest”. I chose the first 3 and sent them samples to Test and Evaluate. I told them all I wanted honest feedback, and if they could “break it” ? Do their worst! One succeeded with .45 SUPER with an early prototype. I personally chose not to go to that length, but I am honor bound to inform you and hereby admit, my partner and I do NOT recommend firing .45 Super with our adapter. All 3 testers were invited to post reviews as soon as we launched the adapter. I now humbly invite them to reveal themselves and I accept whatever their observations and experiences were. I was gratified to find them all well-versed in HK, MARK 23, and mechanical knowledge. Thank you gentlemen for your willingness to participate in the Testing and Evaluation stage!

PRODUCT:

Well Men, here it is. The big reveal. My partner is half Genius and half Mad Scientist and thereby never said no. Throughout the process, I only wanted to bring to market an Honest and Reliable product. We achieved that weeks ago and continued testing the standard 3-slot version that bolts to the trigger guard. But the more I lamented in my head the need to ‘remove’ the chosen device to dismount the adapter….the more it bothered me. The nature of the 3-D printing (lateral or tensile strengths) made it Impossible to put a LAM style wheel on the front-side w/o compromising the design in the upper corner. So it hit me one day to place a thumbwheel screw inside the trigger guard to facilitate the ability to ‘leave’ a laser mounted, but remove the adapter and NEVER lose zero! Remember, the gi-NORM-ous trigger guard was designed for Operators with arctic mittens or thick scuba gloves. I personally feel there is a ton of room inside the guard for the wheel. It is just an option.







FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:

Is it rated for +P? Yes.
.45 Super…….not so much.

It looks “shiny” in the pictures? Yes, due to the nature of the media it appears Semi-Glossy. That is the nature of what is available at this time from manufacturers but we continue to seek a more flat black product to produce the adapter.

Can I paint it? Yes. I had great success with a flat black camo paint from Home Depot that stated Plastic Friendly. Due to the “ridges” of the print layer(s) I found some minimal transfer to my hand after around 24 hours. Customization is up to the end user. Read tester review for additional ideas.

Is it brittle in cold environments? No. I will let one of our reviewers tell you about his experience in a snowy Western State.

Why plastic? Why not improve with metal? Two reasons: One, it already exists…and as you know, is prohibitively expensive to design and manufacture. Two, this is a Half-Price alternative to any viable CNC or metal design. We said this in our initial post, and I will repeat it again with no insult intended. If you are a purist, or putting in 50 yard SEAL or DELTA headshots on the run….then by all means, get the CNC one. If however you believe that technology has come far enough to allow this product to have the strength to hold up to repeated firing and recoil, then give us a chance.

The price point is half of currently available products. We have put our hearts, along with our reputations and integrity into design, building, and testing. I had 1 MARK 23 at first and myself purchased an aluminum adapter. When I bought #’s 2&3 I needed just 2 additional adapters to put in the safe and wait 10 years and maybe sell them. When they were OUT OF STOCK for months on end…..well, I thought we could ‘build a better mousetrap’.

That’s it, so thanks for your time to read this and STAY SAFE OUT THERE !



P.M. me for PAYPAL link or for photos.

No International sales at this time.

(PATENT PENDING)
 

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I need one of these! Payment sent


edit to ad: What laser light combo worked/tested the best? I need to order one.
 

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I was honored to be chosen for the testing of this product!!! :redface:
The following are test items/results: :biggrin:

Mount

- no thumb wheel

Sidearm

- Mark 23 (friend's)

Ammunition

- Winchester 230 grain .45 ACP (FMJ)
- Federal HST 230 grain .45 ACP +P (JHP)

Laser/light

- Streamlight TLR-2G (friend's that he uses on a Glock)

Testing (Day 1/normal range useage)

- 50 rounds (Winchester)
- 50 rounds (Federal +P)

Testing (Day 2/back-to-back magazine dumps)

- 48 rounds (Winchester)
- 48 rounds (Federal +P)

Results

- no loss of zero on light/laser (checked after every magazine)
- no loss of mount integrity

Note: There was a very small (and I mean very small--- like mm small) chip (not a crack, as I originally suspected) of material at the top curve of where the mount attaches to the trigger guard--- however, this could have been present upon my receipt of the mount (unfortunately, I did not inspect the mount that closely, prior to testing, and my friend only noticed it on Day 1, after 36 rounds of +P)--- but there was NO additional material missing AFTER testing. :wink:

Overall, I was very pleased with the fit and function of the mount--- remember, the mount is made of 3D material, not metal, so the aesthetics are not that of smooth metal, but nice, nonetheless. :biggrin:

Tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I need one of these! Payment sent


edit to ad: What laser light combo worked/tested the best? I need to order one.
I am a Big fan of VIRIDIAN. I have 2 C5L's and they come in Green or Red laser with a 100 lumen lamp. The X5's have 178 Lumen continuous and 220 on strobe. Personally, I think it fits the bill with 6 different "modes" SOLID LASER/SOLID LIGHT, STROBING LASER, STROBING LIGHT, SOLID LASER, SOLID LIGHT, STROBING LASER/STROBING LIGHT,etc. Also, I have found with the adapter AND the C5L it will 'barely' fit in my LONDON BRIDGE TRADING holster. However, as you have bought the ThumbWheel version :64: you can always wear a Bigger light and conveniently dismount it to a pouch or pocket !

Hope this helps.

Mike
 

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I was one of the testers. Twice over, in fact, as I was the one who broke it with 45 super and Mike was kind enough to send another for further testing and evaluation. It seems I wasn't quite as scientific about it as Mike and Tony though, I don't have a detailed testing breakdown. I do have one of the HKparts metal adapters and will compare the two below. My light is a Streamlight TLR-2 HL, and I used gunshow-procured 230 grain reloads for all of the shooting except for a couple rounds (before it broke) of Buffalo Bore 185 grain JHP 45 super. The adapters sent to me are slightly different from the ones you'd be buying. There is one more rail notch on mine, and Mike will have to correct me if I'm wrong here but I think from our conversations the final product being offered here is a hair narrower in width at the pic rail, and I can't remember if the spacing between the notches was adjusted a little.

Build quality/fit/aesthetics:
Well, it's 3d printed plastic so what comes with that is the layered texture and sawtooth/stairstep effect on non-flat surfaces and edges. I do wonder if that can be sanded smooth, but haven't tried yet. As Mike said, the material is kinda shiny and it may stick out visually a little. It's not much worse than my break-free CLP-cleaned slide though, and overall I don't mind the look or really feel the need to paint or sand it. It looks better in person than I was expecting.

The fit to the rail and trigger guard of the Mark 23 is outstanding. Anyone who's used the HKparts adapter knows how horrible of a fit-up that one has, and this one has none of those problems. The front of the trigger guard radius is correct, and the curve of the underside of the rail (looking down the barrel) is matched perfectly, and a gap isn't left between the bottom of the rail and top of the adapter. Holding it up to the light, only the smallest bit of light shows through at the top and bottom of the trigger guard interface whereas the HKparts one just looks awful. This adapter also has very nice rounded edges and smoothed lines, as compared to the HKparts' sharp, square edges and no curves at all. That's probably what I like most about this one. Well, and the price.

My TLR-2 fits in the second to last or last notch from the rear, which means for the production model with the last notch removed, it will fit the last only. The end of the light sits just a hair behind the barrel this way. Moving it out to the removed notch pushes it just a hair past the barrel. It's a wee bit tight to get the TLR-2 clamped on. The screw has to be loosened pretty much all the way (not so with my VP9), but like I said I'm pretty sure this was slimmed down for the final version (Mike?). It also has to 'wedge' in a little to the rail notches instead of fitting squarely in there. You might be able to see in the first post photos the notches have the forward side sloped instead of being completely square, and at the base the gap is too narrow to fit the picatinny notch of the TLR-2. Again, I think Mike said this was adjusted. It still works though.
The most important improvement over the HKparts adapter is the height of the pic rail. The HKparts one is SUPER shallow. There's no amount of recess above the notches, the outward sloping flange of the rail starts directly from the underside of the adapter. My TLR-2 fits just barely, but I've seen reports that others do not. This one has the full rail profile just like on my VP9 or P30sk, so there's plenty of room and no reason to worry about any rail accessory fitting.

Performance:
The first one saw about 130 or so rounds over two range trips. Unfortunately both times I forgot to bring the adjustment wrench, so I wasn't able to zero the laser. As best as I can tell the hold was consistent and there was no shift. I shot just how I normally would on a range trip, wasn't deliberately rapid or slow firing, limp wristing, etc. The second trip I slung a couple more mags of standard ammo downrange, then loaded up the 45 super. First time shooting super at all, actually. It was quite the experience in and of itself. Within the first few rounds, most of the adapter with the light attached came flying off, luckily landing on the table and not over the shooting line :). After reporting the breakage and some general feedback, Mike sent a replacement (thanks!) and this one has seen one range trip with 207 rounds. I DID zero it this time, and again within my own shooting ability does not appear to have shifted. I didn't rest it or clamp it or anything. I did do some rapid shooting this time too. Haven't gone drop testing or smashing it around, but it's seen no ill effects from general usage. It arrived with a tiny de-lamination on the very first 'slice' (peeled up just a little bit from the next layer) that hasn't grown. After it failed, I wasn't able to further break the first one by applying rather strong pressure with my fingers.

TL;DR
If you need absolute, will-not-fail-under-any-circumstances strength, this may not be for you. Otherwise, this one fits better and looks better (unless you really hate the texture/gloss I guess) than the HKparts one, and isn't price gouged to ****.

Edit for pics:




The one I broke:
 

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My review is as follows: First impression was this unit is the most economical adaptor available That is not so bulky as to dramatically alter the appearance of the Mark 23. Mostly though, I liked how the picatinny serrations were designed. They are bevelled at the forward and lateral faces to prevent snagging a holster. I have struggled to like the serrations on my VP9, P30l and full rail TRP because their rails have sharp edges and snag/tear at my holsters when no device is attached.
Next, is the fit. When someone creates an aftermarket device, I worry that details get ignored that make the function not worth the effort. I was pleased to see how well this unit fit my frame. It was snug enough to provide a reliable zero while still allowing for placement and removal without the aid of hydraulic presses and mumbled expletives. Also the radius of the trigger guard mating surface matched that of the trigger guard perfectly.
Fastening is done with two methods. The first, which I prefer, is done with an Allen cap screw inset to sort of disappear from view when a light is mounted. I like how clean that looks. That is the one I'll keep. The other method is a thumbscrew mounted inside the trigger guard. It is designed to pass through the guard without touching the threads and engage the adaptor. This method is to accomodate those who wish to remove their adaptor without a tool which it does effectively.

The finish on it is the result of how a 3D printer works. It has a striated appearance and the plastic composition has a sheen. Fortunately, the material can be stippled which both changes the texture and sheen. I plan to use a method of stipple that mirrors the texture found on the Mark 23 grip. Since the unit is so affordable, I am not worried about screwing up a 150.00 part. I can be more bold in my customization. I also plan to bevel the leading or front facing edges of the adaptor that rest on the frame.

Now for performance....I used 100 Barnes personal protection 185 gr 1000fps +p loads and 200 of my own unpublished hot loads that I would only run through a Mark 23. But key to these trials is I left my gun and adaptor out in 17 f temps for several hours and shot all rounds in the cold and desolation of our West desert. See pic below. Yes, my teeth chattered as I sent rounds down range for an hour. Yes, it was miserable. But the adaptor did well. I found no signs of failure and it held zero. As retribution for my misery, I left gun and adaptor in the bed of my truck for the ride home. lol I did this because plastic can be brittle in the cold. I wanted to see if I could cause a failure.

My conclusion is that this is the most viable and inexpensive adaptor option right now. It was nice to be able to use a device on my gun that does not cost 1500.00 or more. Now I can run my Mark23 with an illuminator and not worry about diminishing the value of my LAM by using it so much. The bonus is that the adaptor looks nice even without an illuminator mounted.

So that's my review. Feel free to ask questions. I'll post pics of the gun later.

Freezing cold West desert otherwise know as the Hoth. If you look real carefully you can see my Tauntaun frozen to the ground at the horizon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was one of the testers. Twice over, in fact, as I was the one who broke it with 45 super and Mike was kind enough to send another for further testing and evaluation. It seems I wasn't quite as scientific about it as Mike and Tony though, I don't have a detailed testing breakdown. I do have one of the HKparts metal adapters and will compare the two below. My light is a Streamlight TLR-2 HL, and I used gunshow-procured 230 grain reloads for all of the shooting except for a couple rounds (before it broke) of Buffalo Bore 185 grain JHP 45 super. The adapters sent to me are slightly different from the ones you'd be buying. There is one more rail notch on mine, and Mike will have to correct me if I'm wrong here but I think from our conversations the final product being offered here is a hair narrower in width at the pic rail, and I can't remember if the spacing between the notches was adjusted a little.

Build quality/fit/aesthetics:
Well, it's 3d printed plastic so what comes with that is the layered texture and sawtooth/stairstep effect on non-flat surfaces and edges. I do wonder if that can be sanded smooth, but haven't tried yet. As Mike said, the material is kinda shiny and it may stick out visually a little. It's not much worse than my break-free CLP-cleaned slide though, and overall I don't mind the look or really feel the need to paint or sand it. It looks better in person than I was expecting.
The fit to the rail and trigger guard of the Mark 23 is outstanding. Anyone who's used the HKparts adapter knows how horrible of a fit-up that one has, and this one has none of those problems. The front of the trigger guard radius is correct, and the curve of the underside of the rail (looking down the barrel) is matched perfectly, and a gap isn't left between the bottom of the rail and top of the adapter. Holding it up to the light, only the smallest bit of light shows through at the top and bottom of the trigger guard interface whereas the HKparts one just looks awful. This adapter also has very nice rounded edges and smoothed lines, as compared to the HKparts' sharp, square edges and no curves at all. That's probably what I like most about this one. Well, and the price.
My TLR-2 fits in the second to last or last notch from the rear, which means for the production model with the last notch removed, it will fit the last only. The end of the light sits just a hair behind the barrel this way. Moving it out to the removed notch pushes it just a hair past the barrel. It's a wee bit tight to get the TLR-2 clamped on. The screw has to be loosened pretty much all the way (not so with my VP9), but like I said I'm pretty sure this was slimmed down for the final version (Mike?). It also has to 'wedge' in a little to the rail notches instead of fitting squarely in there. You might be able to see in the first post photos the notches have the forward side sloped instead of being completely square, and at the base the gap is too narrow to fit the picatinny notch of the TLR-2. Again, I think Mike said this was adjusted. It still works though.
The most important improvement over the HKparts adapter is the height of the pic rail. The HKparts one is SUPER shallow. There's no amount of recess above the notches, the outward sloping flange of the rail starts directly from the underside of the adapter. My TLR-2 fits just barely, but I've seen reports that others do not. This one has the full rail profile just like on my VP9 or P30sk, so there's plenty of room and no reason to worry about any rail accessory fitting.

Performance:
The first one saw about 130 or so rounds over two range trips. Unfortunately both times I forgot to bring the adjustment wrench, so I wasn't able to zero the laser. As best as I can tell the hold was consistent and there was no shift. I shot just how I normally would on a range trip, wasn't deliberately rapid or slow firing, limp wristing, etc. The second trip I slung a couple more mags of standard ammo downrange, then loaded up the 45 super. First time shooting it at all, actually. It was quite the experience in and of itself. Within the first few rounds, most of the adapter with the light attached came flying off, luckily landing on the table and not over the shooting line :). After reporting the breakage and some general feedback, Mike sent a replacement (thanks!) and this one has seen one range trip with 207 rounds. I DID zero it this time, and again within my own shooting ability does not appear to have shifted. I didn't rest it or clamp it or anything. I did do some rapid shooting this time too. Haven't gone drop testing or smashing it around, but it's seen no ill effects from general usage. It arrived with a tiny de-lamination on the very first 'slice' (peeled up just a little bit from the next layer) that hasn't grown. After it failed, I wasn't able to further break the first one by applying rather strong pressure with my fingers.

TL;DR
If you need absolute, will-not-fail-under-any-circumstances strength, this may not be for you. Otherwise, this one fits better and looks better (unless you really hate the texture/gloss I guess) than the HKparts one, and isn't price gouged to ****.

I have a couple pics to add later, but stuff to do right now.
I am rarely at a loss for words, but now is almost one of those times. Wow. I am truly humbled by the reviews of all 3 testers. If I only sell 10 of these in the next six months, I will be okay with that and gratified that they were so sincerely evaluated and well-received. This is not (and was never) about money. I needed 2....asked a buddy if he could do it....and when completed, thought I'd 'throw my hat in the ring'. Instead of enduring the wait of 200 views and no sales until the first "sucker" bought the Plastic China-like cradapter, I figured I'd send out 3 'blind samples' in December. They were beta-versions and based on breakage and Incredibly Valuable feedback, we settled on the versions offered in the O.P.

Okay, to KLAUS's questions:

YES, our first attempt at the Picatinny rail was a tad...."fat". It served well for Clamp-type accessories, but would 'spring' the jaws of the Viridian a little bit. Proper Picatinny dimensions have alleviated that.

YES, the beta version you received was a "guess-timation" by my partner prior to our locating a MIL-STD 1913 schematic w/measurements. In that case, our rails were improperly spaced and forced the locking rail(s) or cross screw to 'wedge' or rub the slots. This was corrected as was the height (drop) of the rail as KLAUS states to properly fit any Light or Laser.

De-lamination. Yes, early on we tried various filaments and learned a great deal. My partner had previously produced Radio Control 3-d parts for Planes, Heli's, and Quadcopters which require much less "weight" and don't have to deal with the stress or shock of recoil. We went through 4 filaments before settling on the strongest most durable one, so yes the scaling and lamination issues have been addressed. Additionally, the angles were changed on the sawtooth side of the Pic-slot for a smoother finish and better aesthetic.

Now revealed, KLAUS was our most aggressive tester and for that....I AM grateful. A serious and thorough (read: maniacal !) Engineer, he took the product to a failure point and provided us with that knowledge and ideas of how to make our adapter even Stronger. Thank you for that. I agree with his assessment and stated as much in the O.P. This may not be a "your life depends on it" product, but it is an affordable, available and existing option for personal and range use.

Mike
 

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I was one of the beta testers too. I also have a review to post. Will do so in a few hours.
That foul weather testing is great info, thanks. I'm almost tempted to take it back out with the super and see if that first time was just a fluke if it held up to +p in sub-freezing temps. Are your loads even hotter than +p?
 

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That foul weather testing is great info, thanks. I'm almost tempted to take it back out with the super and see if that first time was just a fluke if it held up to +p in sub-freezing temps. Are your loads even hotter than +p?
Yes my loads are very hot. They go right to the casing and primer capability edge. I would not use them in anything but the Mark 23 and won't publish the data. They are Carolina ghost pepper spicy and for experimental purposes only. I have a theory about the sample that cracked on you. Would need to see the damage and ask you a question first though.
 

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I'll see if I can get a nice detailed picture of it. It wasn't a clean break along one of the layers. You remember those magic eye things? It's kinda like that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yes my loads are very hot. They go right to the casing and primer capability edge. I would not use them in anything but the Mark 23 and won't publish the data. They are Carolina ghost pepper spicy and for experimental purposes only. I have a theory about the sample that cracked on you. Would need to see the damage and ask you a question first though.
" California ghost pepper spicy......." and "...for experimental purposes only." AZIMUTH, do you wear a HELMET along with your eyes and ears when you shoot?

You guys crack me up! Never thought my testers would be Crazier than myself!
 

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Gun Firearm Trigger Airsoft Gun accessory

My adapter/rail arrived very fast! It fits like a glove on my MK23! However, the C5L is too small for this pistol. I'm going to have to find something that looks "right".

Thank you and look forward to shooting it next week.
 

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View attachment 87386

My adapter/rail arrived very fast! It fits like a glove on my MK23! However, the C5L is too small for this pistol. I'm going to have to find something that looks "right".

Thank you and look forward to shooting it next week.
Thanks for the report and pic--- ummm--- yes--- you need a bigger laser/light!!! :biggrin:

Tony
 

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View attachment 87386

My adapter/rail arrived very fast! It fits like a glove on my MK23! However, the C5L is too small for this pistol. I'm going to have to find something that looks "right".

Thank you and look forward to shooting it next week.
I'd be interested in a range report when you get it the way you want it. Glad yours fit as well as mine did. And yeah the Mark 23 is too big for a small light :biggrin:
 

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I'd be interested in a range report when you get it the way you want it. Glad yours fit as well as mine did. And yeah the Mark 23 is too big for a small light :biggrin:
What light/laser did you test? Any preference besides your 1500 lam?
 

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What light/laser did you test? Any preference besides your 1500 lam?
I tested an Insight M6x and an M3x. They did fine. The laser on the M6x stayed zeroed after 100 rds of pretty hot 45 acp. The M3x is still on my Mark 23. It's nice that I can use a more reasonably price light on that gun now.
 
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